The First World War
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
My father was one of many who thought the dangers of fascism had been grossly understated by the press and that Germany posed a risk to this country. This view of the masses seems to have been unreported. I don't believe 'peace in our time' fooled anyone, probably not Chamberlain and certainly not the politically aware men and women in my family. I had an uncle who fought in the International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War. He was first mate on a coastal tramp but very intelligent and took an interest in politics and history. His pronouncements in the late 30s made him something of an oracle.
If he was an oracle, how come he didn't predict that Franco would win the Spanish Civil War and that would lead within 40 years to a strong democracy? Had his side won, what kind of mess would that have ended up in. Not trying to be nasty, but that isn't my definition of intelligence, more youthful idealism and naivety.cardigankid said:
Derek Smith said:
My father was one of many who thought the dangers of fascism had been grossly understated by the press and that Germany posed a risk to this country. This view of the masses seems to have been unreported. I don't believe 'peace in our time' fooled anyone, probably not Chamberlain and certainly not the politically aware men and women in my family. I had an uncle who fought in the International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War. He was first mate on a coastal tramp but very intelligent and took an interest in politics and history. His pronouncements in the late 30s made him something of an oracle.
If he was an oracle, how come he didn't predict that Franco would win the Spanish Civil War and that would lead within 40 years to a strong democracy? Had his side won, what kind of mess would that have ended up in. Not trying to be nasty, but that isn't my definition of intelligence, more youthful idealism and naivety.My sister in Dublin has been doing a bit of family research over the past couple of years and recently discovered that a relation of hours served with the 8th Batallion of the Manitboa Regiment in the Canadian Army. Sadly his fighting career didn't last long as he was killed in action on 21 May 1915 - presumably at Ypres.
His name is on the Vimy Memorial. He has no known grave.
His name is on the Vimy Memorial. He has no known grave.
My family story is my paternal grandfather, his unusual middle name of "Leech" makes him easy to find online.
Thankfully all of his army records did survive although with visible burn marks around the edges on the Ancestry images.
Joined up on the 14th October 1914 (in the Territorials as best I can work out). Various mentions in his records about posting within the UK, including Norwich, kind of ironic as that's where I now live (OK, small village just outside).
Originally joined the RAMC as a driver (I'm assuming horse drawn ambulances).
Stayed in the RAMC until posted (says "proceed overseas" in his records) to France on 3rd April 1917.
Then appears to have got himself into hot water for, and I quote, "being absent from stables for 5 minutes". Was given seven days Field Punishment No. 2, not sure what that entailed.
After that he was transferred to A Battery, 28 Brigade, Royal Field Artillery, he retained his Class 1 proficiency pay so I assume he hadn't blotted his copybook too much with the "5 minutes". Served with the 28th RFA throughout the rest of the war which included serving at Passchendaele. I assume as artillery he would have been spared the worst of the mud.
Then served in Germany during 1919, part of the occupation force on the west bank of the Rhine I assume.
Granted leave on 13th March 1918, so 11 months without leave.
Transferred to B Battery Royal Horse Artillery, 5th Territorial Reserve Brigade in Catterick sometime in 1919 (can't read the date on the forms).
Eventually demobbed on 8th April 1919.
Apart from that little escapade he lived his whole life in the West Midlands within two miles of where he was born until he died in 1963.
Thankfully all of his army records did survive although with visible burn marks around the edges on the Ancestry images.
Joined up on the 14th October 1914 (in the Territorials as best I can work out). Various mentions in his records about posting within the UK, including Norwich, kind of ironic as that's where I now live (OK, small village just outside).
Originally joined the RAMC as a driver (I'm assuming horse drawn ambulances).
Stayed in the RAMC until posted (says "proceed overseas" in his records) to France on 3rd April 1917.
Then appears to have got himself into hot water for, and I quote, "being absent from stables for 5 minutes". Was given seven days Field Punishment No. 2, not sure what that entailed.
After that he was transferred to A Battery, 28 Brigade, Royal Field Artillery, he retained his Class 1 proficiency pay so I assume he hadn't blotted his copybook too much with the "5 minutes". Served with the 28th RFA throughout the rest of the war which included serving at Passchendaele. I assume as artillery he would have been spared the worst of the mud.
Then served in Germany during 1919, part of the occupation force on the west bank of the Rhine I assume.
Granted leave on 13th March 1918, so 11 months without leave.
Transferred to B Battery Royal Horse Artillery, 5th Territorial Reserve Brigade in Catterick sometime in 1919 (can't read the date on the forms).
Eventually demobbed on 8th April 1919.
Apart from that little escapade he lived his whole life in the West Midlands within two miles of where he was born until he died in 1963.
Edited by Norfolkit on Saturday 9th August 01:28
Eric Mc said:
My sister in Dublin has been doing a bit of family research over the past couple of years and recently discovered that a relation of hours served with the 8th Batallion of the Manitboa Regiment in the Canadian Army. Sadly his fighting career didn't last long as he was killed in action on 21 May 1915 - presumably at Ypres.
His name is on the Vimy Memorial. He has no known grave.
That's so sad. One of 28,000 Canadians with no grave.His name is on the Vimy Memorial. He has no known grave.
My great grandmother's family emigrated from Edinburgh to Ottawa, Canada around 1912. Four of her brother's joined up at various stages during the war and soon found their way back in Europe as part of the Canadian Army. I was in Ottawa in 2009 and looked them up in the records office there. They all survived the war mercifully, but one was in hospital in Liverpool with a broken leg when the war ended.
One of her own sons emigrated to Canada in the 1930s and he also joined the Canadian Army & was posted back to Britain during WW2 for the build up to D-Day. He also survived the war.
Here's a photo of the main war memorial in Ottawa that I took when I was out there. The Canadian Houses of Parliament are in the background.
And a close up of the inscription upon it.
That last line gets me every time.
My Great Grand Father fought with the British Army (I'm/he was Irish) during WW1. He fought at the battle of the Somme and I'm told held the rank of Major. The story goes that he was wounded in the leg while on horseback and the horse subsequently fell on his led afterward breaking said leg which led to him having a limp for the rest of his life. He died before I could meet him which was a shame. I'm not too sure of the name of his battalion, royal Hussars maybe?
It saddens me that in Ireland we never talk about both World Wars when so many (relative to Irelands size) fought and died in both. My Grand Uncle served with the British Army in WW2 aswell so both father and son fought in both World Wars. But the majority of people don't want to talk about it, instead they'll talk ignorantly about the grand whatever who fought for Irish independence but actually it's complete pubtalk!
It saddens me that in Ireland we never talk about both World Wars when so many (relative to Irelands size) fought and died in both. My Grand Uncle served with the British Army in WW2 aswell so both father and son fought in both World Wars. But the majority of people don't want to talk about it, instead they'll talk ignorantly about the grand whatever who fought for Irish independence but actually it's complete pubtalk!
I don't think that the situation in Ireland is as bad as it was.
There is now official government involvement in the various WW1 and WW2 remembrance events. There has been a resurgence in membership of the Royal British Legion in Ireland.
The Edward Lutyens designed Garden of Remembrance at Islandbridge in Dublin has been beautifully restored and was visited by the Queen in 2011. To put this in context, I lived in Ireland from 1958 to 1986 and never even knew that this garden existed. Indeed, for most of that time it was left in a derelict and neglected state. Restoration work, by a group of volunteers, began in 1988.
A Royal Dublin Fusiliers Society was founded in Dublin about 20 years.
So, gradually, the Irish have learned to remember the tens of thousands of Irishmen who fought in the two world wars. And about time.
There is now official government involvement in the various WW1 and WW2 remembrance events. There has been a resurgence in membership of the Royal British Legion in Ireland.
The Edward Lutyens designed Garden of Remembrance at Islandbridge in Dublin has been beautifully restored and was visited by the Queen in 2011. To put this in context, I lived in Ireland from 1958 to 1986 and never even knew that this garden existed. Indeed, for most of that time it was left in a derelict and neglected state. Restoration work, by a group of volunteers, began in 1988.
A Royal Dublin Fusiliers Society was founded in Dublin about 20 years.
So, gradually, the Irish have learned to remember the tens of thousands of Irishmen who fought in the two world wars. And about time.
IanMorewood said:
Was an interesting program about the British and French use of colonial troops on the BBC last night. Apparently the Germans thought it rather unfair as they couldn't access their colonies due to Naval Blockade. The French used the Senegalese extensively as shock troopers, i was unaware of how important they were recapturing the forts of Verdun.
I tried to watch that but found the presenter's interpretation of everything as racist got rather grating. I gave up before the end. Maybe that was just my interpretation but a shame as I agree it's a really interesting perspective that's often forgotten.cardigankid said:
Derek Smith said:
My father was one of many who thought the dangers of fascism had been grossly understated by the press and that Germany posed a risk to this country. This view of the masses seems to have been unreported. I don't believe 'peace in our time' fooled anyone, probably not Chamberlain and certainly not the politically aware men and women in my family. I had an uncle who fought in the International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War. He was first mate on a coastal tramp but very intelligent and took an interest in politics and history. His pronouncements in the late 30s made him something of an oracle.
If he was an oracle, how come he didn't predict that Franco would win the Spanish Civil War and that would lead within 40 years to a strong democracy? Had his side won, what kind of mess would that have ended up in. Not trying to be nasty, but that isn't my definition of intelligence, more youthful idealism and naivety.His role was what we would call now humanitarian aid. He took a coastal tramp from London Docks, no idea which one, to North Spain. He was in a small convoy of two or three similar ships. I'm unaware of whether his intention was to return immediately for a further trips but circumstances limited his options.
The people in charge were a mixed lot evidently, many professors and such from universities, and they loved giving orders despite knowing absolutely nothing about navigation, seamanship or common sense according to my uncle. Despite being the only professional sailor on board, first mate (if that's 2 i/c, I don't think they are called deputy captain), he was treated as a deck-hand.
When they got to the harbour, the other ships had arrived first and were moored side by side, this in a war zone. The blokes in charge directed the crew to put the boat in the same area. Despite protestations from my uncle and others, they were overruled and the obvious happened: the boats, all of them, were damaged in an attack. So he stayed for a while, doing what he never told me, and then, his boat patched up, he returned.
He knew a war was coming and that convoys would be started again. He was a boy sailor and had gone on at least one N. Atlantic convoy in WWI which had upset him.
He volunteered for tankers, which paid more, in WWII, and then for the Murmansk convoys - not sure if that was better remunerated - and was on QP16, the one before the ill-fated PQ17 (PQ outbound, QP return) and after that he went on a couple more.
He had cancer in later life, and was on strong painkillers. It made him a bit more voluble and I visited he three or four times and all he wanted to do was talk of his war. Some of the stories were absolutely horrific: men sliding down the sides of stricken ships and being lacerated by the barnacles and such below the normal water line. He told one story of a stricken tanker with the crew having to choose between being burned to death by remaining on board, or jumping in the sea and being burned as the leaking oil was on fire.
Not sure which war that was, but it was obviously a strong memory.
He obviously felt guilty that the only thought he had was of being silhouetted against the fire so was a sitting target.
He slept on deck during the clear nights because those were the time that ships would die.
A high percentage of the merchant marine died in the war.
He was born, I think, at the turn of the century, at sea at the age of 12 or 13 and so would have been 14 or so at the start of the war.
He was intelligent, highly intelligent, and very artistic. His hobby was carving bone, some of which were stunningly beautiful.
Some of the stories he told were new to his wife. He never spoke of his war service, apart from the Spanish civil war, up until then.
king wow Eric. Do you realise [no you don't] just how insulting that is?.Only if you want it to be.
I've been to Galliopli and I've seen the landing beaches, the graves and the monuments so you don't need to tell me how awful it must have been. It was extremely moving - especially as there were a number of Aussies and New Zealanders in the party I was with.
However, the Aussies (but not the New Zealanders - who were there too) sometimes use it as a stick to give the Poms a bit of a beating on occasion.
I've been to Galliopli and I've seen the landing beaches, the graves and the monuments so you don't need to tell me how awful it must have been. It was extremely moving - especially as there were a number of Aussies and New Zealanders in the party I was with.
However, the Aussies (but not the New Zealanders - who were there too) sometimes use it as a stick to give the Poms a bit of a beating on occasion.
GadgeS3C said:
IanMorewood said:
Was an interesting program about the British and French use of colonial troops on the BBC last night. Apparently the Germans thought it rather unfair as they couldn't access their colonies due to Naval Blockade. The French used the Senegalese extensively as shock troopers, i was unaware of how important they were recapturing the forts of Verdun.
I tried to watch that but found the presenter's interpretation of everything as racist got rather grating. I gave up before the end. Maybe that was just my interpretation but a shame as I agree it's a really interesting perspective that's often forgotten.Tried to watch the "our war" program (series) on BBC3 about the 2nd Fusiliers at Mons, the sepia film mixed with third person steady cam and the cutting to and from the computer generated maps made me turn off within 5 minutes.
Edited by IanMorewood on Saturday 9th August 21:26
Eric Mc said:
Only if you want it to be.
I've been to Galliopli and I've seen the landing beaches, the graves and the monuments so you don't need to tell me how awful it must have been. It was extremely moving - especially as there were a number of Aussies and New Zealanders in the party I was with.
However, the Aussies (but not the New Zealanders - who were there too) sometimes use it as a stick to give the Poms a bit of a beating on occasion.
The majority of units at Gallipoli were British, a great uncle of mine didn't make it back.I've been to Galliopli and I've seen the landing beaches, the graves and the monuments so you don't need to tell me how awful it must have been. It was extremely moving - especially as there were a number of Aussies and New Zealanders in the party I was with.
However, the Aussies (but not the New Zealanders - who were there too) sometimes use it as a stick to give the Poms a bit of a beating on occasion.
SS7
I think this would be a good thread for a "This day on...." type of posting.
The first really big battle on the Western Front occurred today with over 27,000 French soldiers killed (not just casualtioes - which would have been at least 100,000) during heavy fighting in and around the Ardennes as the Germans tried to cross the Meuse River and at other border points (The Battle of the Frontiers).
These are truly shocking figures - but you can't even blame it on the cliché of "the horrors of trench warfare" because at this stage in the war, the trenches didn't really exist.
What went so wrong for the French on this day?
Did they not know what they were up against?
The first really big battle on the Western Front occurred today with over 27,000 French soldiers killed (not just casualtioes - which would have been at least 100,000) during heavy fighting in and around the Ardennes as the Germans tried to cross the Meuse River and at other border points (The Battle of the Frontiers).
These are truly shocking figures - but you can't even blame it on the cliché of "the horrors of trench warfare" because at this stage in the war, the trenches didn't really exist.
What went so wrong for the French on this day?
Did they not know what they were up against?
Theres a bit about why the French failed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ardenne...
"the defeat of the Colonial Corps was caused by faulty reconnaissance, the ineffectiveness of advanced guards in causing delay to advancing German units and that French offensive tactics neglected the importance of obtaining a superiority of fire, which had led to reckless attacks. The effectiveness of the German opponents was not mentioned but German reconnaissance had been effective, communication between commanders and subordinates had not broken down, mutual support between neighbouring units had occurred and German artillery had provided continuous close fire support."
In essence, the Germans where working as a team. They where further down the path of Combined Warfare tactics than the French where at this point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ardenne...
"the defeat of the Colonial Corps was caused by faulty reconnaissance, the ineffectiveness of advanced guards in causing delay to advancing German units and that French offensive tactics neglected the importance of obtaining a superiority of fire, which had led to reckless attacks. The effectiveness of the German opponents was not mentioned but German reconnaissance had been effective, communication between commanders and subordinates had not broken down, mutual support between neighbouring units had occurred and German artillery had provided continuous close fire support."
In essence, the Germans where working as a team. They where further down the path of Combined Warfare tactics than the French where at this point.
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