How many Romanian/Bulgarian migrants are you predicting?
Poll: How many Romanian/Bulgarian migrants are you predicting?
Total Members Polled: 517
Discussion
And hey presto, we're back to benefits again! 
Young professionals can't afford to have babies in no small part due to the fact that they're massively over-taxed in order to pay for deadbeats to have kids with which to fund their existence (as opposed to the other way round).
Immigration is a trivial red herring in comparison, but you've decided it would be too difficult to address the benefits issue, so you're going to blame some foreigners instead.
porridge said:
Those Young professionals and HE students used to live together and then as the career progressed buy a home and start a family. Now this is harder with the student debt and ongoing rise in cost of basic living i.e. cost of rent and bills and excluding any luxuries as wages have not kept pace with inflation.
It is one thing to see something as a stepping stone to a better life, and another to see no future.
This is very true. It's very difficult, however, for take home wages to rise anything like in line with inflation when you've got such a massive benefits black hole which is increasing by way more than inflation.It is one thing to see something as a stepping stone to a better life, and another to see no future.
porridge said:
We want more young professionals and HE students to be having babies and earlier rather than what seems to be currently the case- low end popping them out and the professionals either leaving it later (increasing chance of complications/disabilities) or not having any.
And again....Young professionals can't afford to have babies in no small part due to the fact that they're massively over-taxed in order to pay for deadbeats to have kids with which to fund their existence (as opposed to the other way round).
Immigration is a trivial red herring in comparison, but you've decided it would be too difficult to address the benefits issue, so you're going to blame some foreigners instead.
Kermit power said:
And hey presto, we're back to benefits again!
'We' are not, you are. I have already discussed how imo immigration is easier to solve than Brit Citizens benefits and gave you lots of pretty illustrations too. These, whilst related to some degree, are issues to be treated separately. If you wish to keep going around in circles then fair enough, enjoy.
Caught an episode of benefits street last night.
Couple of interesting points;
- both groups of Romanians that came were here to work, not scrounge
- both groups arrived by road, one family bringing their own vehicles, the other larger group of men dropped off by truck. Bizarrely, neither group used EasyJet
Couple of interesting points;
- both groups of Romanians that came were here to work, not scrounge
- both groups arrived by road, one family bringing their own vehicles, the other larger group of men dropped off by truck. Bizarrely, neither group used EasyJet
emicen said:
Caught an episode of benefits street last night.
Couple of interesting points;
- both groups of Romanians that came were here to work, not scrounge
- both groups arrived by road, one family bringing their own vehicles, the other larger group of men dropped off by truck. Bizarrely, neither group used EasyJet
-The programme was recorded before the borders were officially opened- both families were technically working illegally and were not eligible for benefits. Couple of interesting points;
- both groups of Romanians that came were here to work, not scrounge
- both groups arrived by road, one family bringing their own vehicles, the other larger group of men dropped off by truck. Bizarrely, neither group used EasyJet
-The adults in the first family were not exactly young, fit and full of energy...
- And considering they were flat broke, makes you wonder if those vehicles had any insurance.
- Both ran off and did not pay rent to landlord or utilities.
Edited by porridge on Friday 17th January 00:41
Romanian labour minister in the Financial Times today- worried that the double digit growth they have been enjoying is being halted by the exodus of unskilled & highly skilled professionals (thereby confirming the "there is no mass migration" as lies). They are putting in place measure to encourage them to stay such as a 100k grant to open a business.
Suspect they may find this a losing battle and so instead have to start encouraging more non-eu immigration themselves from their neighbours...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6223da90-7ece-11e3-8642-...
Suspect they may find this a losing battle and so instead have to start encouraging more non-eu immigration themselves from their neighbours...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6223da90-7ece-11e3-8642-...
superkartracer said:
Neither Romanian nor Bulgarian, so what's the relevance of this?Zod said:
superkartracer said:
Neither Romanian nor Bulgarian, so what's the relevance of this?
The relevance is that all foreigners are exactly the same as the worst foreign criminal you can find an example of, according to PH lore. Nationality is irrelevant as you should know by now.
blindswelledrat said:
Zod said:
superkartracer said:
Neither Romanian nor Bulgarian, so what's the relevance of this?The relevance is that all foreigners are exactly the same as the worst foreign criminal you can find an example of, according to PH lore. Nationality is irrelevant as you should know by now.
You have licence to decide who is "foreign ".
Mermaid said:
Out of interest, do you know if "foreigners" commit more crimes - as a percentage of the population? I don't .
You have licence to decide who is "foreign ".
Unlike you I don't group people as "foreigners" and I don't think many people do, despite what this thread would suggest.You have licence to decide who is "foreign ".
Mermaid said:
Out of interest, do you know if "foreigners" commit more crimes - as a percentage of the population? I don't .
You have licence to decide who is "foreign ".
The figures for prison population by country of origin are easy(ish) to find on the web, released under FOI, and do show that certain nationalities - Lithuanian for one example - are statistically over-represented in terms of the ration of convicted criminals vs. population. There is no disputing this and neither, really, is it surprising to me - you import people, uncontrolled and unvetted, from the most backward, criminal and corrupt countries and it is fairly obvious what the outcome will be.You have licence to decide who is "foreign ".
Digga said:
The figures for prison population by country of origin are easy(ish) to find on the web, released under FOI, and do show that certain nationalities - Lithuanian for one example - are statistically over-represented in terms of the ration of convicted criminals vs. population. There is no disputing this and neither, really, is it surprising to me - you import people, uncontrolled and unvetted, from the most backward, criminal and corrupt countries and it is fairly obvious what the outcome will be.
Agreed. When you look at the overall figures, though, I am surpised that the way you describe it that it isn't worse.14% of the UK prison population is foreign born whilst they make up 12% of the population. Over represented indeed, but not by that much.
Given that crime is much more closely linked to poverty/low incomes than nationality I wonder what those figures would show if you could compare like-for-like income comparisons between the foreign born immigrants and the domestic nationals?
blindswelledrat said:
Agreed. When you look at the overall figures, though, I am surpised that the way you describe it that it isn't worse.
14% of the UK prison population is foreign born whilst they make up 12% of the population. Over represented indeed, but not by that much.
Given that crime is much more closely linked to poverty/low incomes than nationality I wonder what those figures would show if you could compare like-for-like income comparisons between the foreign born immigrants and the domestic nationals?
In addition to poverty age is a big factor in prison population. The highest percentage of prisoners fall into the age bracket from 20-40. This is also the demographic of new immigrants. So to compare percentages in prison for the native population you should really compare the number in prison to the UK population excluding anyone under say 20 and over 65. If you did this then the percentage of immigrants in prison would be much lower that the native population. There are lies damed lies and statistics. 14% of the UK prison population is foreign born whilst they make up 12% of the population. Over represented indeed, but not by that much.
Given that crime is much more closely linked to poverty/low incomes than nationality I wonder what those figures would show if you could compare like-for-like income comparisons between the foreign born immigrants and the domestic nationals?
Mrr T said:
blindswelledrat said:
Agreed. When you look at the overall figures, though, I am surpised that the way you describe it that it isn't worse.
14% of the UK prison population is foreign born whilst they make up 12% of the population. Over represented indeed, but not by that much.
Given that crime is much more closely linked to poverty/low incomes than nationality I wonder what those figures would show if you could compare like-for-like income comparisons between the foreign born immigrants and the domestic nationals?
In addition to poverty age is a big factor in prison population. The highest percentage of prisoners fall into the age bracket from 20-40. This is also the demographic of new immigrants. So to compare percentages in prison for the native population you should really compare the number in prison to the UK population excluding anyone under say 20 and over 65. If you did this then the percentage of immigrants in prison would be much lower that the native population. There are lies damed lies and statistics. 14% of the UK prison population is foreign born whilst they make up 12% of the population. Over represented indeed, but not by that much.
Given that crime is much more closely linked to poverty/low incomes than nationality I wonder what those figures would show if you could compare like-for-like income comparisons between the foreign born immigrants and the domestic nationals?
Some nations are vastly under-represented - Kenya for one - whilst, as I said, Lithuania is alarmingly over-represented. I cannot be arsed to trawl the net for the Home Office figures again but suffice it to say if anyone doubts what I say, go look at them.
IMHO it is not only about poverty, but about decency and society - you can be poor and have both. It is also about integration and bringing large numbers here without helping them to integrate and become stakeholders in the place is rather daft.
Agree with you to an extent Digga, but what would you do about it?
Leaving aside the fact that we have to treat the EU as one country, what would you do?
Would you say "It turns out that 5% of Lithuanians commit a crime hence we will not allow any of them in"?
Would you split it into types of crime?
For example- Lithunania may be the highest incidents but of low rate crimes while another country might seem under represented but the crimes are all human trafficking etc?
The only thing I would agree with is that regardless of nationality- any immigrant that has been convicted of a crime of a certain seriousness should not be allowed entry. Beyond that I think it is far too complex an issue and you just have to accept the rough with the smooth
Leaving aside the fact that we have to treat the EU as one country, what would you do?
Would you say "It turns out that 5% of Lithuanians commit a crime hence we will not allow any of them in"?
Would you split it into types of crime?
For example- Lithunania may be the highest incidents but of low rate crimes while another country might seem under represented but the crimes are all human trafficking etc?
The only thing I would agree with is that regardless of nationality- any immigrant that has been convicted of a crime of a certain seriousness should not be allowed entry. Beyond that I think it is far too complex an issue and you just have to accept the rough with the smooth
blindswelledrat said:
The only thing I would agree with is that regardless of nationality- any immigrant that has been convicted of a crime of a certain seriousness should not be allowed entry. Beyond that I think it is far too complex an issue and you just have to accept the rough with the smooth
^This really.Even under the EU "open door" regs, you are still entitled to screen for known/wanted criminals. Instead, we've actually become a nice little haven for some of them.
I agree you cannot do any more. There is no way that, without the benefit of hindsight, anyone could accurately predict the likelihood of any particular nation providing us with criminals.
However, there is also the angle of integration. It is possible that we grow immigrant criminals - that the circumstances of individuals push them toward crime once here, rather than them necessarily criminal beforehand - and I think a better policy of integration would help, although this is where the EU immigrants can sidestep any attempt to ensure suitability of candidates.
Digga said:
Even under the EU "open door" regs, you are still entitled to screen for known/wanted criminals.
Really? Someone here further back said that we couldn't. That effectively for immigration you treated the EU as one big country and we could no more exclude a Latvian criminal than we could a Scouse. Do you have any links to support this?Digga said:
However, there is also the angle of integration. It is possible that we grow immigrant criminals - that the circumstances of individuals push them toward crime once here, rather than them necessarily criminal beforehand -
WHo knows? My gut feeling is not. The average economic immigrant is coming from extreme poverty, and if that hasn't driven them to crime then I cant see how being here and better off would.blindswelledrat said:
WHo knows? My gut feeling is not. The average economic immigrant is coming from extreme poverty, and if that hasn't driven them to crime then I cant see how being here and better off would.
Opportunity - people being softer and wealthier here - and also temptation. Combine this to the outcome of immigration not always being as rosy as had been anticipated (and this is not always, of course, the immigrant's fault) and it is easy to see how it can have this effect.already posted in the UKIP thread, but bang on topic here...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...
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