How many Romanian/Bulgarian migrants are you predicting?
Poll: How many Romanian/Bulgarian migrants are you predicting?
Total Members Polled: 517
Discussion
Mermaid said:
Does any other EU country offer the same facility? Or are we the only mugs?
Doesn't apply- other countris seem to have their priorities better and not wish to saddle their young with stupid amount of debt.France Universities are 200-600 euros a year, and in Germany most charge nothing but a 200 euro per semester fee which has benefits including public transport pass.
http://www.mastersportal.eu/articles/405/tuition-f...
How do you fancy a free £1500 cash award you don't have to apply for?
salford uni said:
Accession States Bursary
The Accession States Bursary is for students from the EU Accession States (currently Bulgaria, Croatia and Romania). It’s a £1,500 cash award for the first year of the course. This award is given to eligible students after registration – there is no need to apply for the bursary, although students will need to have applied to the Student Loans Company for funding, returned their declaration to the SLC and have given their consent for the SLC to share their information with the University. Students will usually receive the bursary in October. Please note that this bursary will cease to apply for students joining the University in September 2014 if the Government proposed unrestricted working rights are granted in January 2014.
http://www.salford.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/money-matters/scholarships-and-bursariesThe Accession States Bursary is for students from the EU Accession States (currently Bulgaria, Croatia and Romania). It’s a £1,500 cash award for the first year of the course. This award is given to eligible students after registration – there is no need to apply for the bursary, although students will need to have applied to the Student Loans Company for funding, returned their declaration to the SLC and have given their consent for the SLC to share their information with the University. Students will usually receive the bursary in October. Please note that this bursary will cease to apply for students joining the University in September 2014 if the Government proposed unrestricted working rights are granted in January 2014.
I really don't mind the principle of the loans and grant if the risk of non-payment was (at a minimum) underwritten by the home country and the grant was subject to conditions such as limited to worthwhile courses/reputable institutions/passing each semester. Otherwise these are just open to being abused as blatant top-ups to benefits and low income.
God knows what other benefits are below the radar.
UK population growing faster than any other EU country
EU doc said:
Britain had Europe’s fastest growing population last year in terms of absolute numbers of people, according to European Union statistics.
The latest Eurostat population figures show that there were 392,600 more people in Britain in 2012 compared to the previous year, putting the total population of the UK at 63,888,000.
More than a third of the increase, 38 per cent or 148,700 people, was accounted for by immigration...
The latest Eurostat population figures show that there were 392,600 more people in Britain in 2012 compared to the previous year, putting the total population of the UK at 63,888,000.
More than a third of the increase, 38 per cent or 148,700 people, was accounted for by immigration...
Government figures released today said:
Just 107,950 homes were constructed in 2012-13
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/disa...Edited by porridge on Thursday 21st November 23:49
Accusations that the temp restrictions on these countries have not been enforced. Not surprising as this will reduce the figures counted from January for the government.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...
NDA said:
We've been branded 'nasty' for not wanting them.
Good!
Fekkem. We don't need to import other countries welfare problems.
Good!
Fekkem. We don't need to import other countries welfare problems.
Better to be known as a 'Nasty Country' than a 'Free benefits, health and housing' country! Frankly most EU countries will be looking at this story and thinking fair enough.Farage said:
Today Mr Cameron basically said: "Carry on coming but you can only claim benefits from April 1 rather than January 1 2014", which is hardly a severe penalty.
His light touch proposals will not deter Romanian and Bulgarian people who are living in severe poverty relative to the UK from coming here. The free movement of EU citizens is a binding EU rule from which Mr Cameron has refused to deviate
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10479013/On-EU-migrants-David-Cameron-is-making-promises-he-cant-keep.htmlHis light touch proposals will not deter Romanian and Bulgarian people who are living in severe poverty relative to the UK from coming here. The free movement of EU citizens is a binding EU rule from which Mr Cameron has refused to deviate
Willy Nilly said:
odyssey2200 said:
If there were less immigrants taking up jobs, there would be vacancies.
There are 4 Polish men that stand of the back of my potato harvester and chuck stones and clods off. It is an 18 hour drive for them to come over here. There must be 4 people in town that could do that job. They didn't take anyone's job, the job was there, they turned up and no body else did. More labour= race to the bottom in wages= benefits/family support make more sense. The Poles would do exactly the same if this was Poland and they had been through the same Labour government benefit policies and inadequate education.
We need to fix it rather than taper over the cracks with cheap immigrants who cost less to the employer but more overall with their low income benefit top ups.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2514797/Pr...
dm said:
PLAN: Migrants who currently get jobseeker’s allowance after less than a month will have to wait three months before claiming.
REALITY: Mr Cameron claims emergency legislation is needed but, under the habitual resident test, newcomers can already be forced to wait up to three months. Cases are decided by officials at job centres. The EU objects to the rules and is already mounting a legal challenge.
PLAN: Benefits will be stopped after six months unless people have a genuine prospect of employment.
REALITY: Already the case. Existing DWP guidelines state migrants must be ‘genuinely seeking work, and have a reasonable chance of being engaged’ if they wish to continue receiving handouts. Officials will have to prove the migrant is not about to find work, which can be very difficult.
PLAN: Beggars and vagrants from EU countries will be removed and barred from re-entering Britain for 12 months.
REALITY: Migrants who make no attempt to find work are considered not to be exercising their EU Treaty rights and can be kicked out. However, this depends on already-stretched immigration officials finding out who they are – and having the resources to boot them out. There are doubts over the ability of border guards, who have allowed terrorists to slip into the country, to stop anyone who has been removed simply getting on the next coach or plane back to Britain.
PLAN: A ‘minimum earnings threshold’ will be introduced to access benefits that top up earnings.
REALITY: Details are very vague and no date has been fixed for introduction, but this is likely to apply only to a very small number of migrants who work fewer than 16 hours a week, and receive income support. Will be challenged by Brussels in the courts under rules which insist all EU citizens must be treated the same way.
PLAN: EU jobseekers will no longer get housing benefit to help with accommodation costs.
REALITY: Sounds tough but councils will still be obliged to help any EU migrants – including Romanians and Bulgarians – who present themselves as homeless, especially if they have children. New arrivals with low-paid jobs will continue to be entitled to HB. Even for a one-bedroom flat, it can be worth £250 a week. The maximum is £400 a week. Policy will not be in place by January 1.
PLAN: End the payment of child benefit to migrants whose children live abroad.
REALITY: Nothing more than a vague negotiating position for Mr Cameron. Currently, any EU migrant who is ‘actively seeking work’ is entitled to a handout worth £20.30 for the first child and £13.40 for any others. Farcically, there are 24,000 payments being made in respect of 40,000 children living overseas. Romanians and Bulgarians who leave their children behind will be free to claim.
AND WHAT IS MISSING ...
There is nothing in the package to address the real issue: the lifting of restrictions on Romanians and Bulgarians coming to the UK to work from January 1.
With an estimated 50,000 people moving to the UK each year, further pressure will be placed on schools, hospitals and roads.
British youngsters – there are one million out of work – will face even greater competition to find jobs.
REALITY: Mr Cameron claims emergency legislation is needed but, under the habitual resident test, newcomers can already be forced to wait up to three months. Cases are decided by officials at job centres. The EU objects to the rules and is already mounting a legal challenge.
PLAN: Benefits will be stopped after six months unless people have a genuine prospect of employment.
REALITY: Already the case. Existing DWP guidelines state migrants must be ‘genuinely seeking work, and have a reasonable chance of being engaged’ if they wish to continue receiving handouts. Officials will have to prove the migrant is not about to find work, which can be very difficult.
PLAN: Beggars and vagrants from EU countries will be removed and barred from re-entering Britain for 12 months.
REALITY: Migrants who make no attempt to find work are considered not to be exercising their EU Treaty rights and can be kicked out. However, this depends on already-stretched immigration officials finding out who they are – and having the resources to boot them out. There are doubts over the ability of border guards, who have allowed terrorists to slip into the country, to stop anyone who has been removed simply getting on the next coach or plane back to Britain.
PLAN: A ‘minimum earnings threshold’ will be introduced to access benefits that top up earnings.
REALITY: Details are very vague and no date has been fixed for introduction, but this is likely to apply only to a very small number of migrants who work fewer than 16 hours a week, and receive income support. Will be challenged by Brussels in the courts under rules which insist all EU citizens must be treated the same way.
PLAN: EU jobseekers will no longer get housing benefit to help with accommodation costs.
REALITY: Sounds tough but councils will still be obliged to help any EU migrants – including Romanians and Bulgarians – who present themselves as homeless, especially if they have children. New arrivals with low-paid jobs will continue to be entitled to HB. Even for a one-bedroom flat, it can be worth £250 a week. The maximum is £400 a week. Policy will not be in place by January 1.
PLAN: End the payment of child benefit to migrants whose children live abroad.
REALITY: Nothing more than a vague negotiating position for Mr Cameron. Currently, any EU migrant who is ‘actively seeking work’ is entitled to a handout worth £20.30 for the first child and £13.40 for any others. Farcically, there are 24,000 payments being made in respect of 40,000 children living overseas. Romanians and Bulgarians who leave their children behind will be free to claim.
AND WHAT IS MISSING ...
There is nothing in the package to address the real issue: the lifting of restrictions on Romanians and Bulgarians coming to the UK to work from January 1.
With an estimated 50,000 people moving to the UK each year, further pressure will be placed on schools, hospitals and roads.
British youngsters – there are one million out of work – will face even greater competition to find jobs.
Kermit power said:
We have the unemployed, but I also frequently see signs advertising jobs in fast food restaurants and the like. I don't see our homegrown unemployed rushing to fill those jobs and get themselves off benefits.
Have you every given thought to the idea that maybe the reason we have so many unemployed isn't that those 2 million people can't find a job, so much as they can't find one they view as being worth coming off benefits for?
How many of those unemployed do you think would still be unemployed if their benefits were removed after 12 months, or they didn't qualify for them in the first place unless they'd worked for 12 months?
Minimum wage is a pointless red herring, btw. How high do you think wages can go before UK farming in general becomes completely uncompetitive and the whole lot moves offshore? The only jobs which can sensibly be protected by a minimum wage are those directly providing services which have to be provided at point of consumption. Anything else is competing in a global market.
If benefits disappeared, those claimants who waddle up in the fast food joints would also go- fact is a most of the benefit money goes directly back into our consumer economy. It is not as simple as saying "sort out benefits overnight" as the whole benefit wheel is now a ingrained part of the economy and will need a lot of time to sort out.Have you every given thought to the idea that maybe the reason we have so many unemployed isn't that those 2 million people can't find a job, so much as they can't find one they view as being worth coming off benefits for?
How many of those unemployed do you think would still be unemployed if their benefits were removed after 12 months, or they didn't qualify for them in the first place unless they'd worked for 12 months?
Minimum wage is a pointless red herring, btw. How high do you think wages can go before UK farming in general becomes completely uncompetitive and the whole lot moves offshore? The only jobs which can sensibly be protected by a minimum wage are those directly providing services which have to be provided at point of consumption. Anything else is competing in a global market.
The benefits argument has NOTHING AT ALL to do with EU Open Door policy, an unrelated matter as immigrants from all over the world, including the EU will still be queueing up to enter with or without it- many good people from outside the EU are being turned away for the sake of a numbers game.
This is about an open door policy where a nation cannot vet an individual before they arrive regardless of our need/suitability of the individual.
Saying "the bloke down the factory is great" is not the big picture.
Kermit power said:
If someone wants to come here and actively contribute to society, why on earth would you have a problem with that?
I don't, but how do you know they wish to stay and contribute?How do we know anything about them at the point they arrive? Have they been on the dole in home country for most of life? how many dependent kids/any illnesses/overweight/criminial record/references check prior to entry
We are taking people in on blind trust
Kermit power said:
I'm perfectly happy to have lots of foreigners helping share the tax burden of supporting layabout feckless scum who seem to think they're somehow special just because their mother happened to squeeze them out in this green and pleasant land.
How about factoring every other cost apart from tax paid in by a EU national? Which on a farm/fast food zero hour contract wage is very low. How much do you think the council pays per year to educate a child and do you think a low income immigrant will cover that and other costs? As per the Oxford study discussed prior, as immigrants get older they will most likely overall cost MORE than they paid in.
Kermit power said:
For those who want to come here and join the layabout feckless, however, the benefits argument has EVERYTHING to do with it.
The only thing that the EU says with respect to benefits and healthcare is that we have to give foreign EU residents the same access to services and support as we'd give to a homegrown resident, and we in return get access to the same in other EU countries.
The EU never said we had to have this laughably over-generous system in the first place! The Telegraph has conveniently compiled a list of the various conditions to be met before receiving benefits in each country of the EU, and nowhere comes close to the UK for absurd degrees of access.
Yes we should toughen benefits overall, but if none of the parties are willing to do this then we are currently stuck, one problem at a time and Jan 1st is not far away.The only thing that the EU says with respect to benefits and healthcare is that we have to give foreign EU residents the same access to services and support as we'd give to a homegrown resident, and we in return get access to the same in other EU countries.
The EU never said we had to have this laughably over-generous system in the first place! The Telegraph has conveniently compiled a list of the various conditions to be met before receiving benefits in each country of the EU, and nowhere comes close to the UK for absurd degrees of access.
Kermit power said:
This is NOT an EU issue. It's a benefits issue, which is being clouded over by a bunch of pointless anti-EU rhetoric. There are over 2 million people claiming JSA in the UK, and only about 40,000 of these are non-UK EU citizens. You could stop that tomorrow, and we'd still have over 2 million people being paid for by the state!
Remember that most of the EU countries are themselves on welfare cases- the billions the UK, pays into the EU goes to pay the poorer states 'integration'.Whilst we argue about UK benefits, the EU will carry on with its idiocy, there is no weighting in the EU over how much each member actually contributes and how much say they get; Turkeys voting for Christmas?
It is basic common sense over ideology that is the fundamental issue with the EU.
k all from the Gov't.Mr_B said:
smegmore said:
Kermit power said:
With our aging domestic population, we need more and more, and we'll continue to need more. There's no point restricting people from coming here to do those jobs unless we can at the same time force our own feckless to do those jobs.
At present, employers are faced with employing immigrants willing to work but who may be harder to manage until their English skills catch up on the one hand, or employing the domestic feckless who may or may not turn up, and probably won't do much if they do on the other.
Remove the fluffy benefits system so that the domestic feckless have no choice but to work if they want to eat, and the balance of employability flows back in their direction (at least those who already more or less speak English themselves!) whilst cutting their benefits also cuts benefits for EU migrants, thus doubly reducing the attractiveness of the country to said migrants.
We will continue to need low-paid, low-skilled immigrants as long as we continue paying our own not to work.
My bold. Sums up the whole argument to me.At present, employers are faced with employing immigrants willing to work but who may be harder to manage until their English skills catch up on the one hand, or employing the domestic feckless who may or may not turn up, and probably won't do much if they do on the other.
Remove the fluffy benefits system so that the domestic feckless have no choice but to work if they want to eat, and the balance of employability flows back in their direction (at least those who already more or less speak English themselves!) whilst cutting their benefits also cuts benefits for EU migrants, thus doubly reducing the attractiveness of the country to said migrants.
We will continue to need low-paid, low-skilled immigrants as long as we continue paying our own not to work.
Yet another one for the 'Open Borders is good' fools. Add the cost of the trial, police time, prison costs etc to this alleged 'net benefit'.
A Bulgarian burglar who was allowed into the UK despite having a string of convictions for theft and burglary has been jailed after he broke into a home just eight days after arriving in the country.
Emil Metodiev, 32, was caught red-handed with items from the burglary in Thorpe Bay, Essex, and pleaded guilty to the break-in earlier this year. He was jailed for 16 months at Basildon Crown Court yesterday.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2517391/Bu...
A Bulgarian burglar who was allowed into the UK despite having a string of convictions for theft and burglary has been jailed after he broke into a home just eight days after arriving in the country.
Emil Metodiev, 32, was caught red-handed with items from the burglary in Thorpe Bay, Essex, and pleaded guilty to the break-in earlier this year. He was jailed for 16 months at Basildon Crown Court yesterday.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2517391/Bu...
blindswelledrat said:
Porridge, you generally have some valid points to make but do you really believe that isolated anecdotes quoting single Bulgarian burglars has any real relevance to the general issue?
Not so much an isolated incident as an addition to a large collection. The point is that if crimininals want to enter a (any) country, they should at least have to get a fake passport as a minimum 
blindswelledrat said:
I definitely agree with that point. I always thought that we didn't accept criminals but it seems I was wrong on that.
We let them back in even after we deport them:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2513657/Ho...
blindswelledrat said:
O don't agree that there is any merit in posting a link every time you see a foreign criminal though. We know now. Saying "here- another criminal" every day just doesn't really add anything, IMO
This one was postd due to the mere 8 days after arrival factor.blindswelledrat said:
You're missing my point. I do actually agree with you, Im just discussing labouring a point
Imagine this conversation in a pub:
Porridge: BSR- do you know that any criminal can come in along with working immigrants. That's bad isn't it?
BSR: I didn't know that. It is a flaw to the system for sure
Porridge: Look- here is a burglar from Bulgaria
BSR: Okay, I get the point
Porridge: And look in the mail today - a Romanian rapist
BSR: I get it. Seriously.
Porridge: Look- here is a Polish shoplifter
BSR: Sigh.
What, an imagined made up conversation written in your favour? Imagine this conversation in a pub:
Porridge: BSR- do you know that any criminal can come in along with working immigrants. That's bad isn't it?
BSR: I didn't know that. It is a flaw to the system for sure
Porridge: Look- here is a burglar from Bulgaria
BSR: Okay, I get the point
Porridge: And look in the mail today - a Romanian rapist
BSR: I get it. Seriously.
Porridge: Look- here is a Polish shoplifter
BSR: Sigh.
It actually went
Porridge: serial foreign burglar commits same crime upon arrival
BRS: Oh I didn't know they let criminals in, but I still refuse to do anything other than sit on the fence.
blindswelledrat said:
Out of curiosity to all the anti-immigration people on here:
There are not many if at all any 'anti-immigration people' on here. We are 'pro-controlled' immigration people. Can you please just acknowledge that.blindswelledrat said:
Obviously no such figures existed, but if I could produce actual figures that proved that you were financially better off because of our immigration policy - would you still be against it?
Again no one is saying no immigration- a sensible immigration policy. Why are we in the ridiculous position of turning down better qualified people from outside the EU so Cameron can attempt his lowering immigration pledge?blindswelledrat said:
Just a question of pure curiosity. To ask it another way - would you rather we didn't have our large European population and the economy worse in a worse situation?
Is a large unchecked European population essential to the economy? Are you suggesting that vetted EU migration and non-EU immigration to the UK would not have resulted in a better situation than the mess we have now? Off course it would have. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff