How many Romanian/Bulgarian migrants are you predicting?
Poll: How many Romanian/Bulgarian migrants are you predicting?
Total Members Polled: 517
Discussion
blindswelledrat said:
porridge said:
.
Open Door immigration is madness, work out how many people we need and what skill-sets are required and then let them in from Romania/Bulgaria or anywhere else on permits of a suitable timeframe.
I don't disagree with this.Open Door immigration is madness, work out how many people we need and what skill-sets are required and then let them in from Romania/Bulgaria or anywhere else on permits of a suitable timeframe.
I disagree with persistent anecdotes and twisting of facts to somehow prove that foreigners are nasty.
Whilst open door immigration is indeed too much, controlled immigration is essential.
All my umbrage is to you and other repeatedly posting examples of bad people and crying " LOOK HOW AWFUL THESE FOREIGNERS ARE".
It doesn't add to the discussion and it actually undermines the valid points you have.
What are your point?
Who are you planning to vote for in the euro/generals?
How would you vote today on an In/Out referendum on current terms?
Kermit power said:
This gets right to the very core of the issue.
You're moaning that domestic unskilled people can't afford a nice flat and a Sky subscription if they're having to compete against foreign unskilled people who are not only supporting themselves in the UK, they're also sending money back home as well, and all on lower wages.
What the hell gives the domestic unskilled a divine right to a nice flat and a Sky subscription in the first place?????
If you don't have the skills to pay for what you want, then you either do without or you gain the skills to command a higher wage. Why is that so difficult to understand?
If your neighbour demanded that you buy them a new TV because they couldn't be arsed to work at school and can't afford to buy it themselves, would you just give them the TV? Of course not!
Why, then, are you protecting exactly that situation just because there are some immigrants willing to do the work more competitively? After all, you are paying for it to a degree anyway. You're paying for it through taxation spent on benefits, and you're paying it through increased prices to pay the higher wages.
Lower wages are an illusion, it is your taxes then paying for those 'in work' benefits, you are already buying that TV.You're moaning that domestic unskilled people can't afford a nice flat and a Sky subscription if they're having to compete against foreign unskilled people who are not only supporting themselves in the UK, they're also sending money back home as well, and all on lower wages.
What the hell gives the domestic unskilled a divine right to a nice flat and a Sky subscription in the first place?????
If you don't have the skills to pay for what you want, then you either do without or you gain the skills to command a higher wage. Why is that so difficult to understand?If your neighbour demanded that you buy them a new TV because they couldn't be arsed to work at school and can't afford to buy it themselves, would you just give them the TV? Of course not!
Why, then, are you protecting exactly that situation just because there are some immigrants willing to do the work more competitively? After all, you are paying for it to a degree anyway. You're paying for it through taxation spent on benefits, and you're paying it through increased prices to pay the higher wages.
Besides, why do you classify working class as "nice flat and sky subscription"?? What most of these people want is a decent place to live, decent education for their offspring etc Sky subscription (which in any event creates jobs) stereotypes are not required.
Higher GDP vs Standard of life- you seem to choose the former.
Kermit power said:
Open Door immigration isn't madness per se, as can be seen by the fact that plenty of other EU countries aren't suffering in the way that we are. Open Door immigration only begins to be a part of madness when you couple it with unfettered access to ludicrously high benefits.
Strip away the benefits, and more people have to go out and work if they want to survive.
If more people have to go out to work to survive, there are less jobs for immigrants to walk in to when they get here.
Strip away the immediate access to benefits (for everyone, not just the immigrants) and fewer immigrants can afford to come here on spec, knowing they can fall back on benefits if they don't find a job quickly.
Do that, and Open Door immigration becomes a simple way of flexibly filling the gaps we've got.
Which other country is not suffering how we are? Italy & Spain which had Millions of Romanians as UK was closed till this Jan? Have a look at their unemployment rates and have a look at how many of their natives have left to destinations including the UK. Or how about Germany where the councils are writing to Merkel begging for more cash to cope. Or Holland where cities are point blank stating they will break Eu rules.Strip away the benefits, and more people have to go out and work if they want to survive.
If more people have to go out to work to survive, there are less jobs for immigrants to walk in to when they get here.
Strip away the immediate access to benefits (for everyone, not just the immigrants) and fewer immigrants can afford to come here on spec, knowing they can fall back on benefits if they don't find a job quickly.
Do that, and Open Door immigration becomes a simple way of flexibly filling the gaps we've got.
How about Belgium which has refused every single citizenship application in 2013?
All you ever do is bang the benefits drum.
Kermit power said:
It's an interesting assumption that we're a wealthy country when we've got a national debt of over £30k per working person.
Your Socialist ideal is great in theory, but in practice we simply can't afford it! Unemployment benefits, housing benefits, pensions, healthcare.... It's all got to be paid for somewhere, and we do not have the money to pay for it, hence the vast national debt and our kids' futures being more and more heavily mortgaged.
You say it's not unreasonable for people to expect somewhere warm and dry to live and to be able to feed and clothe their family. Let's flip that round the other way.... Why is it reasonable for people to even have a family if they can't afford to feed and clothe them? Why should the state (which of course actually means taxpayers like us) pay for them to have families?
WTF is wrong with you? Dropped on your head as a child Your Socialist ideal is great in theory, but in practice we simply can't afford it! Unemployment benefits, housing benefits, pensions, healthcare.... It's all got to be paid for somewhere, and we do not have the money to pay for it, hence the vast national debt and our kids' futures being more and more heavily mortgaged.
You say it's not unreasonable for people to expect somewhere warm and dry to live and to be able to feed and clothe their family. Let's flip that round the other way.... Why is it reasonable for people to even have a family if they can't afford to feed and clothe them? Why should the state (which of course actually means taxpayers like us) pay for them to have families?
Apologies but getting sick of this. UNCONTROLLED EU IMMIGRATION DOES NOT HELP WITH THE BENEFIT ISSUE AND INSTEAD MAKES IT WORSE. If you have a bee in your bonnet then the last thing you want is uncontrolled immigration on indefinate leave to stay in the UK.Let me spell it out once again with a picture and the impact of immigration on this.
Picture 1
1) State pension is the single biggest welfare cost. Uncontrolled EU Immigration = More in the future to get old and on mimimum wage means they again will be reliant on the state pension.
2) Old people vote, so government won't cut benefits to rich pensioners. EU Immigration means in the future more people will be getting these perks.
3) In work benefits increase as Immigration lowers wages. So Immigration means more benefits not only for the min wage immigrants, but also the existing workers whose wages drop.
4) The NHS costs go up if the population goes up.
Pic 2
1) As the population increases, the demand for homes increases and rent goes up. The Housing Benefits bill goes up, you do not want uncontrolled immigration if you are against benefits.
2) As rent/mortgage goes up, people have less to spend in the economy- witness the crap sales results of all the retailers this Christmas. This will lead to less new jobs.
Pic 3
1) Minimum wage do not pay much tax and take out more than the put in. It costs London councils £6,000 per child per year in education. Allow in any EU and plenty working immigrant families will come. Just two kids and thats 12k a year taxpayers are paying.
pic 4
Do you see what this shows? Immgrants are not holding up the UK GDP, British workers are. They are not all unemployed and lazy as you seem to be convinced. Immigrants allow low end employers to pay peanuts and exploitation is rife.
I can go on with all the other costs and social factors.
Please STOP bringing up the benefits as an argument for EU immigration, it is a seperate issue that also needs to be controlled.. If you must blame everything on benefits then start another thread.
Kermit power said:
All of which is very pretty, but completely irrelevant.
Our country is attractive to immigrants either directly (they get to claim them) or indirectly (homegrown people can claim them rather than doing the low paid jobs) because of our benefits system.
Fix the benefits problem, and you will have done a huge amount to fix the immigration problem.
Yes, of course, the benefits bill would still be a problem even if we didn't have a single immigrant, but that doesn't mean it isn't directly relevant to immigration.
You fail to address any of it, including if you were dropped on your head as a baby!Our country is attractive to immigrants either directly (they get to claim them) or indirectly (homegrown people can claim them rather than doing the low paid jobs) because of our benefits system.
Fix the benefits problem, and you will have done a huge amount to fix the immigration problem.
Yes, of course, the benefits bill would still be a problem even if we didn't have a single immigrant, but that doesn't mean it isn't directly relevant to immigration.
once again
MINIMUM WAGES IN THE UK ARE 6-8x MORE THAN EASTERN EUROPE. EVEN WITHOUT BENEFITS THIS IMMIGRATION WILL NOT STOP.
blindswelledrat said:
Porridge, I love the way that every time someone pulls you up on your xenophobia you claim they are demanding uncontrolled immigration.
Nobody in any of the tens of pages of this thread has been in full support of it. You just fall back on pretending people say that because it's easy to argue against.
Again you falsely accuse me of Xenophobia to stir things up. Why do you want to have the same conversation again and again? Go troll elsewhere.Nobody in any of the tens of pages of this thread has been in full support of it. You just fall back on pretending people say that because it's easy to argue against.
blindswelledrat said:
porridge said:
MINIMUM WAGES IN THE UK ARE 6-8x MORE THAN EASTERN EUROPE. EVEN WITHOUT BENEFITS THIS IMMIGRATION WILL NOT STOP.
You're ignoring the point.If there were no benefits then the current workshy would work these minimum wage jobs and there would only be enough jobs for a limited number of immigrants. Number of jobs available is equally important as salary for immigrants.
The UK has a system where the minimum wage is not enough to live on and the government tops up with in-work benefits, perks and pensions. If there were "no benefits" than wages would rise due to
1)as we live in a democracy and people would vote for a party that would recognise this.
2) Benefits helps the fundamental basis of our capitalist society- consumerism. Benefits people don't save, they spend spend spend- a indirect method of governmental stimulus. If no benefits then you would need to ensure a surplus of income for those on lower incomes (the majority in a wage pyramid) to still be able to have spare cash to spend.
This cannot be switched off overnight, benefit withdrawal needs a prolonged gradual withdrawal, so you or Kermit banging on with "stop benefits and we will be ok" is unrealistic over the short to medium term.
vonuber said:
porridge said:
MINIMUM WAGES IN THE UK ARE 6-8x MORE THAN EASTERN EUROPE. EVEN WITHOUT BENEFITS THIS IMMIGRATION WILL NOT STOP.
The cost of living in Eastern Europe is probably 6-8 times less. In fact having actually been to Romania (and actually know some Romanians and speak to them) for a lot of things it is certainly so. Many young men come over alone and live 10 to a flat (at which point the cost of living is not 6-8 times the UK) and send money back home. It is the same as occurred in the 70s & 80s, poor immigrants will always squeeze into a property and make enough to go back home much wealthier or establish themselves here.
I want our young to be just as flexible and move for jobs around the UK (as they already do), but I do not want them to to be forced to live 10 to a flat in-order to compete with these immigrants. We are not a 3rd world country and do not want to introduce such living standards as the norm.
blindswelledrat said:
porridge said:
You are being unrealistic.
The UK has a system where the minimum wage is not enough to live on and the government tops up with in-work benefits, perks and pensions. If there were "no benefits" than wages would rise due to
1)as we live in a democracy and people would vote for a party that would recognise this.
2) Benefits helps the fundamental basis of our capitalist society- consumerism. Benefits people don't save, they spend spend spend- a indirect method of governmental stimulus. If no benefits then you would need to ensure a surplus of income for those on lower incomes (the majority in a wage pyramid) to still be able to have spare cash to spend.
This cannot be switched off overnight, benefit withdrawal needs a prolonged gradual withdrawal, so you or Kermit banging on with "stop benefits and we will be ok" is unrealistic over the short to medium term.
Of course I agree it's not black and white and I don't advocate cutting off all benefits. I also realise that you cant cut it off overnight.The UK has a system where the minimum wage is not enough to live on and the government tops up with in-work benefits, perks and pensions. If there were "no benefits" than wages would rise due to
1)as we live in a democracy and people would vote for a party that would recognise this.
2) Benefits helps the fundamental basis of our capitalist society- consumerism. Benefits people don't save, they spend spend spend- a indirect method of governmental stimulus. If no benefits then you would need to ensure a surplus of income for those on lower incomes (the majority in a wage pyramid) to still be able to have spare cash to spend.
This cannot be switched off overnight, benefit withdrawal needs a prolonged gradual withdrawal, so you or Kermit banging on with "stop benefits and we will be ok" is unrealistic over the short to medium term.
We are just discussing general theory here, which you can't disprove by policy minutiae
Just as we cant switch off benefits overnight, we cant switch off immigration overnight so it's not even worth mentioning.
Bulgaria got borders opened and then broke the EU Agreement- introduced a new law banning non-Bulgarians from buying land in Bulgaria. The EU has said "oh that is very naughty"
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/01/06/344094/bul...blindswelledrat said:
SO back to the actual point you've ignored. If the unemployed British were prepared to work then there would be less jobs for the immigrants and that would naturally curtail it. Economic migrants to not go to places where there is no work available.
As said 2 posts above:I want our young to be just as flexible and move for jobs around the UK (as they already do), but I do not want them to to be forced to live 10 to a flat in-order to compete with these immigrants. We are not a 3rd world country and do not want to introduce such living standards as the norm.
Edited by porridge on Friday 10th January 13:48
Mrr T said:
Its all fine
I used to be like you a year ago, met educated Eastern Europeans at work, tried the latest Polish deli, sold a car to a Lithuanian car enthusiast, noticed the 8am-8pm the loft conversion guys worked across the road.Then I started looking into the bigger picture and saw that the UK borders are open unconditionally and we have no control over who comes in, and it is causing a lot of issues which could be solved with some basic common-sense policies which the politicians and organisations like the BBC refused to believe (and are now lining up to apologise for as per Nick Robinson, Jack Straw and so on) .
Rather than saying what is your evidence and asking to be spoon fed, go out there and find out. Visit an area which has experienced change, read what councils, NHS staff and headmistresses have stated in public, read what the many exploited immigrants who were misled into the UK have to say.
A lot of information out there.
Edited by porridge on Friday 10th January 16:27
mph1977 said:
porridge said:
Yes, I know and do not need to visit that to know... but you are comparing like for like?
Many young men come over alone and live 10 to a flat (at which point the cost of living is not 6-8 times the UK) and send money back home. It is the same as occurred in the 70s & 80s, poor immigrants will always squeeze into a property and make enough to go back home much wealthier or establish themselves here.
I want our young to be just as flexible and move for jobs around the UK (as they already do), but I do not want them to to be forced to live 10 to a flat in-order to compete with these immigrants. We are not a 3rd world country and do not want to introduce such living standards as the norm.
part of the problem is the creation of a belief of entitlement among the benefit classes over housing - it is only recently that the under 25/ 30 have only been entitled to a housing benefit rate based on shared accomodation, despite the fact that the vast majority of HE students, Single military personnel and 'young professionals' live in shared accomodationMany young men come over alone and live 10 to a flat (at which point the cost of living is not 6-8 times the UK) and send money back home. It is the same as occurred in the 70s & 80s, poor immigrants will always squeeze into a property and make enough to go back home much wealthier or establish themselves here.
I want our young to be just as flexible and move for jobs around the UK (as they already do), but I do not want them to to be forced to live 10 to a flat in-order to compete with these immigrants. We are not a 3rd world country and do not want to introduce such living standards as the norm.
It is one thing to see something as a stepping stone to a better life, and another to see no future. We want more young professionals and HE students to be having babies and earlier rather than what seems to be currently the case- low end popping them out and the professionals either leaving it later (increasing chance of complications/disabilities) or not having any.
Kermit power said:
And hey presto, we're back to benefits again! 
'We' are not, you are. I have already discussed how imo immigration is easier to solve than Brit Citizens benefits and gave you lots of pretty illustrations too. These, whilst related to some degree, are issues to be treated separately. If you wish to keep going around in circles then fair enough, enjoy.
emicen said:
Caught an episode of benefits street last night.
Couple of interesting points;
- both groups of Romanians that came were here to work, not scrounge
- both groups arrived by road, one family bringing their own vehicles, the other larger group of men dropped off by truck. Bizarrely, neither group used EasyJet
-The programme was recorded before the borders were officially opened- both families were technically working illegally and were not eligible for benefits. Couple of interesting points;
- both groups of Romanians that came were here to work, not scrounge
- both groups arrived by road, one family bringing their own vehicles, the other larger group of men dropped off by truck. Bizarrely, neither group used EasyJet
-The adults in the first family were not exactly young, fit and full of energy...
- And considering they were flat broke, makes you wonder if those vehicles had any insurance.
- Both ran off and did not pay rent to landlord or utilities.
Edited by porridge on Friday 17th January 00:41
Romanian labour minister in the Financial Times today- worried that the double digit growth they have been enjoying is being halted by the exodus of unskilled & highly skilled professionals (thereby confirming the "there is no mass migration" as lies). They are putting in place measure to encourage them to stay such as a 100k grant to open a business.
Suspect they may find this a losing battle and so instead have to start encouraging more non-eu immigration themselves from their neighbours...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6223da90-7ece-11e3-8642-...
Suspect they may find this a losing battle and so instead have to start encouraging more non-eu immigration themselves from their neighbours...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6223da90-7ece-11e3-8642-...
On BBC Today programme just now, the senior presenter John Humphreys went up to Page Hall in Sheffield to see if the Roma situation had improved.
Was a grim piece, no change and a total mess. As he walked round with an official (was either mp or councillor) locals approached uninvited (both white and Asian) and told of the mess it was contradicting the politically correct crap from the official. Locals were very angry with the groups hanging around, their attitudes and swearing, benefit culture and the rubbish thrown out onto the streets and gardens.
The official stated that she ignores the locals now as they won't accept change...
She said all it needs is time, John summarised that it is fair enough for her and politicians in London to say it needs time but it is not them on the front line living with it.
Felt sorry for the people living there.
Was a grim piece, no change and a total mess. As he walked round with an official (was either mp or councillor) locals approached uninvited (both white and Asian) and told of the mess it was contradicting the politically correct crap from the official. Locals were very angry with the groups hanging around, their attitudes and swearing, benefit culture and the rubbish thrown out onto the streets and gardens.
The official stated that she ignores the locals now as they won't accept change...
She said all it needs is time, John summarised that it is fair enough for her and politicians in London to say it needs time but it is not them on the front line living with it.
Felt sorry for the people living there.
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