Attend Islam class or be branded racist
Discussion
standards said:
Oh nothing important. Thinking about the meaning of life, how you should live, how to treat others, how to die. What is it to be human. All completely unimpotant stuff.
Like treating women as second-class humans and persecuting homosexuals?Halmyre said:
But then you might as well also teach them about astrology, phrenology and alchemy.
And flat-earth, luddism and Morris dancing.If the government spent half as much time bridging the gap between the minority of immigrants and contemporary British culture as they did ramming minority immigrant culture down the throats of the rest of us, these sorts of things might be met with more understanding. As it is, in the case being discussed in the OP, the clunking-hand of totalitarian leftism has once again betrayed its deftlessness.
Digga said:
And flat-earth, luddism and Morris dancing.
If the government spent half as much time bridging the gap between the minority of immigrants and contemporary British culture as they did ramming minority immigrant culture down the throats of the rest of us, these sorts of things might be met with more understanding. As it is, in the case being discussed in the OP, the clunking-hand of totalitarian leftism has once again betrayed its deftlessness.
Oh, for goodness' sake, let's keep a lid on the drama, shall we?If the government spent half as much time bridging the gap between the minority of immigrants and contemporary British culture as they did ramming minority immigrant culture down the throats of the rest of us, these sorts of things might be met with more understanding. As it is, in the case being discussed in the OP, the clunking-hand of totalitarian leftism has once again betrayed its deftlessness.
In the mid 80s, whilst we were under the guiding hand of The Blessed Maggie, I was taught about (and went on school trips to the relevant temples/mosques/synagogues etc) Sikhism, Islam, Jainism, Hinduism and Judaism. An appreciation and understanding of how other people view the world - even if and especially if you don't personally agree with them - is nothing but an asset.
4v6 said:
If they want to teach culture in schools, try English culture, learn about yourself before you learn about others.
Digga said:
And flat-earth, luddism and Morris dancing.
If the government spent half as much time bridging the gap between the minority of immigrants and contemporary British culture as they did ramming minority immigrant culture down the throats of the rest of us, these sorts of things might be met with more understanding. As it is, in the case being discussed in the OP, the clunking-hand of totalitarian leftism has once again betrayed its deftlessness.
Genuine question - What is this English culture that should be taught? I'm interested because in all honesty if someone outside of England ask me what English culture is about I would struggle to answer...If the government spent half as much time bridging the gap between the minority of immigrants and contemporary British culture as they did ramming minority immigrant culture down the throats of the rest of us, these sorts of things might be met with more understanding. As it is, in the case being discussed in the OP, the clunking-hand of totalitarian leftism has once again betrayed its deftlessness.
fizz47 said:
Genuine question - What is this English culture that should be taught? I'm interested because in all honesty if someone outside of England ask me what English culture is about I would struggle to answer...
An amalgam of history, heritage, daily life and customs, the same as any other culture you might care to mention.
d, how could you even think of inflicting THAT on poor unsuspecting kids! 
CommanderJameson said:
Digga said:
And flat-earth, luddism and Morris dancing.
If the government spent half as much time bridging the gap between the minority of immigrants and contemporary British culture as they did ramming minority immigrant culture down the throats of the rest of us, these sorts of things might be met with more understanding. As it is, in the case being discussed in the OP, the clunking-hand of totalitarian leftism has once again betrayed its deftlessness.
Oh, for goodness' sake, let's keep a lid on the drama, shall we?If the government spent half as much time bridging the gap between the minority of immigrants and contemporary British culture as they did ramming minority immigrant culture down the throats of the rest of us, these sorts of things might be met with more understanding. As it is, in the case being discussed in the OP, the clunking-hand of totalitarian leftism has once again betrayed its deftlessness.
In the mid 80s, whilst we were under the guiding hand of The Blessed Maggie, I was taught about (and went on school trips to the relevant temples/mosques/synagogues etc) Sikhism, Islam, Jainism, Hinduism and Judaism. An appreciation and understanding of how other people view the world - even if and especially if you don't personally agree with them - is nothing but an asset.
As for what constitiutes Britishness, well speaking the language obviously helps, but it is more about societal standards and ideals - equality, fairness and law.
Digga said:
As for what constitiutes Britishness, well speaking the language obviously helps, but it is more about societal standards and ideals - equality, fairness and law.
Lol at societal standards equality and fairness. What exactly are these then? How to the people born and bred in the UK adhere to these? They don't do they - plenty of examples not least from what should be the highest in society (i.e. MP's). It's a load of tosh. Those are Human values which most people adhere to and is not restricted to the so called British culture.NISMOgtr said:
Digga said:
As for what constitiutes Britishness, well speaking the language obviously helps, but it is more about societal standards and ideals - equality, fairness and law.
Lol at societal standards equality and fairness. What exactly are these then? How to the people born and bred in the UK adhere to these? They don't do they - plenty of examples not least from what should be the highest in society (i.e. MP's). It's a load of tosh. Those are Human values which most people adhere to and is not restricted to the so called British culture.4v6 said:
An amalgam of history, heritage, daily life and customs, the same as any other culture you might care to mention.
I totally aggree that all of the above are good things to learn about....What I dont get is how you can do any of the above without teaching and informing people about other religions.How are you going to teach children about english history without teaching them about religion? Correct me if i'm wrong but isnt english history steeped in events all revolving around religion? Maybe lets just take that bit out ....I'm sure that will provide a decent education to our children..
There are many people who are English yet from all walks of religions - some of their daily life and customs revolves around religious activities- visiting a mosque, church synagogue etc...is then that not part of English culture or do we then ignore that aspect..
You cannot escape the fact that religion is still all around us whether it is walking by a Church or meeting a work collegue who is dressed in a head scarf. It impacts all of us even if we are not religios - so why not learn about it?
I know I am going of on a tangent but I really feel sorry (especially the children who have to hear it ) for those people who like to copy paste the the check list of an EDL pamphlet on what religion is about and what are their teachings... they cant seem to distinguish what is truly a religios ideaology and what weirdos/ extremists/ fanatics harp on about in the name of religion- Ask these same people to genuinley go meet a balanced person who follows religion they will refuse and and just get their information from the good old Daily Mail and get wound up by stories that shouldnt be given the time of the day...
At the same time unfortunatly it's not just DM readers but many ethnic communitites dont help themselves either. They bring up their children in such a closed environment and claim practices in the name of religion that in actual fact have no religious standings. Unfortunatly it is to their detriment as when a child grows up they will struggle professionally and socially.
Sorry for the tangent
Edited by fizz47 on Tuesday 26th November 09:45
fizz47 said:
they cant seem to distinguish what is truly a religios ideaology and what weirdos/ extremists/ fanatics harp on about in the name of religion-
This is the crux. It's not religion that's the problem. It's human nature that's the problem. The same accusations that have been picked out in the posts above could be applied to non-religious ideologies as well - Communism and Democracy are two that spring to mind immediately.Many of the traits people are identifying, such as treating women like 2nd class citizens or persecuting homosexuals, are seen in people/sectors of society that aren't religious at all.
Swervin_Mervin said:
fizz47 said:
they cant seem to distinguish what is truly a religios ideaology and what weirdos/ extremists/ fanatics harp on about in the name of religion-
This is the crux. It's not religion that's the problem. It's human nature that's the problem. The same accusations that have been picked out in the posts above could be applied to non-religious ideologies as well - Communism and Democracy are two that spring to mind immediately.Many of the traits people are identifying, such as treating women like 2nd class citizens or persecuting homosexuals, are seen in people/sectors of society that aren't religious at all.
My beef on the OP was never with kids being educated about religion, but more the top-down, dictat-style way that, in this instance, the whole thing was delivered to parents - very much something you'd associate with a totalitarian, authoritarion, mono-cultured state.
CommanderJameson said:
Oh, for goodness' sake, let's keep a lid on the drama, shall we?
In the mid 80s, whilst we were under the guiding hand of The Blessed Maggie, I was taught about (and went on school trips to the relevant temples/mosques/synagogues etc) Sikhism, Islam, Jainism, Hinduism and Judaism. An appreciation and understanding of how other people view the world - even if and especially if you don't personally agree with them - is nothing but an asset.
We mostly had the local vicar / PE teacher / RE teacher who was very easily sidetracked onto matters of rugby, the latest school production or the summer canal boat holiday. At various times we also had an American evangelist and a serious young man who soon left teaching to join the priesthood.In the mid 80s, whilst we were under the guiding hand of The Blessed Maggie, I was taught about (and went on school trips to the relevant temples/mosques/synagogues etc) Sikhism, Islam, Jainism, Hinduism and Judaism. An appreciation and understanding of how other people view the world - even if and especially if you don't personally agree with them - is nothing but an asset.
I do remember we once learnt something about mezuzahs.
Massive waste of valuable teaching time.
I would;
Identify the major religions
Compare and contrast their core beliefs
Show their geographical distributions
List their major festivals
Point out that there are very many minor religions
Point out that most people in the UK are not religious
Should all be achievable in year 7 and left at that.
fizz47 said:
I totally aggree that all of the above are good things to learn about....What I dont get is how you can do any of the above without teaching and informing people about other religions.
How are you going to teach children about english history without teaching them about religion? Correct me if i'm wrong but isnt english history steeped in events all revolving around religion? Maybe lets just take that bit out ....I'm sure that will provide a decent education to our children..
Good points. You can teach history and as you say the religious parts in there, but its a side issue to the subject isnt it?How are you going to teach children about english history without teaching them about religion? Correct me if i'm wrong but isnt english history steeped in events all revolving around religion? Maybe lets just take that bit out ....I'm sure that will provide a decent education to our children..
Henry the 8th persecuting catholics for example.
You can teach the historical facts and the reasons for it but why start going into the catholic or protestant belief system?
It can be separated and taught to those that actively seek it out.
fizz47 said:
There are many people who are English yet from all walks of religions - some of their daily life and customs revolves around religious activities- visiting a mosque, church synagogue etc...is then that not part of English culture or do we then ignore that aspect..
Id suggest we ignore it. If certain sections of society want to believe in gas fairies, flying pigs or any other religious belief then fine by me, I just dont think its suitable to be indoctrinating innocent minds with blatantly false and pointless "faith" of any description.
fizz47 said:
You cannot escape the fact that religion is still all around us whether it is walking by a Church or meeting a work collegue who is dressed in a head scarf. It impacts all of us even if we are not religios - so why not learn about it?
Because theres nothing to be gained from it.Will the study of a book of fiction and practices based on ritual improve a childs understanding of reality?
No, itll fill their heads with fiction, thats what faith is, its also why undeveloped minds are targetted, get em early and set it in stone for them, I truly despise that aspect which helps explain my opposition to it.
fizz47 said:
I know I am going of on a tangent but I really feel sorry (especially the children who have to hear it ) for those people who like to copy paste the the check list of an EDL pamphlet on what religion is about and what are their teachings... they cant seem to distinguish what is truly a religios ideaology and what weirdos/ extremists/ fanatics harp on about in the name of religion- Ask these same people to genuinley go meet a balanced person who follows religion they will refuse and and just get their information from the good old Daily Mail and get wound up by stories that shouldnt be given the time of the day...
That sort of hints that stories in a newspaper = bad, but stories in a book about god = good.Theyre both fictional with a smattering of fact, both seeking to influence their readers although I'd suggest theres likely more fact in the DM than in any bible.
Some people have faith in the DM some in a book of god I'd not advocate either being in the school curriculum.
fizz47 said:
At the same time unfortunatly it's not just DM readers but many ethnic communitites dont help themselves either. They bring up their children in such a closed environment and claim practices in the name of religion that in actual fact have no religious standings. Unfortunatly it is to their detriment as when a child grows up they will struggle professionally and socially.
Sorry for the tangent
No need to be sorry for any diversion, you nailed a particular aspect, the closed community part, I agree 100% with that.Sorry for the tangent
Edited by fizz47 on Tuesday 26th November 09:45
Swervin_Mervin said:
You seem awfully fixated on the idea that "educating" people about a subject matter is "indoctrinating" them. The two are distinctly different things.
Point taken but I'm aware of the differences. Indoctrination is the act of teaching a belief to be accepted uncritically, unquestioningly and with a specific point of view, mostly associated with religion, for example, the material is already set out for you, its gods word.
Education on the other hand is described as the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge and of developing the powers of reasoning and judgment.
Reasoning and judgment being the important difference to religious "teachings" where just blind acceptance is required to be in the club.
Swervin_Mervin said:
Children are encouraged to read, including fictional works - do you think they all grow up believing everything that they've read?
Of course not, but if theyre told that the devil will get them if they dont say a certain verse 20 times a day, pray to mecca or bow down when the man with the dog collar says so then itll obviously impact on them, you only have to realise how many adults unquestioningly "believe" in sky pixies to know the answer to your particular question.I'd suggest they were indoctrinated and the numbers of followers proves it to be so.
No way would a questioning mind take it on faith.
4v6 said:
I'd suggest they were indoctrinated and the numbers of followers proves it to be so.
No way would a questioning mind take it on faith.
Really.....wow ... I must be hanging around some pretty thick people then seeing as they dont have questioning minds. So they are intelligent enough to carry out lets say a heart procedure but are too think to question their faith?No way would a questioning mind take it on faith.
I wonder if our own Queen is a bit thick too, seeing as she is the head of the Church of England... Oh yes i forgot... we ignore that part of our British Culture. I do wonder what we should teach instead. How to be chavvy scum and not respect other people? Or maybe the best way to scrounge off the state?
Also a bit disturbing that you think the amount of followers = proves being indoctrined. Much more difficult to indoctrine people these days with so much information readily available on our fingertips so we can all make our own balanced judgement. Understandable if you are in the middle of the amazon where there is no infomration being passed back and forth but in this day and age we have more info at our disposal than is even necessary.
Edited by fizz47 on Tuesday 26th November 13:22
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