Attend Islam class or be branded racist

[Corpulent Tosser]

otolith said:

Corpulent Tosser said:

Yes, they should know about these things, why would you want to limit a child's knowledge/experience.

Could we sum that up with a lesson that says "some people believe in all sorts of untrue nonsense"?

You might be content with your children being taught only that, I wouldn't have been.

[Halmyre]

Corpulent Tosser said:

Halmyre said:

But then you might as well also teach them about astrology, phrenology and alchemy.

Yes, they should know about these things, why would you want to limit a child's knowledge/experience.

Well I know about them, but I wasn't, and didn't, need to be taught about them.

[4v6]

fizz47 said:

Really.....wow ... I must be hanging around some pretty thick people then seeing as they dont have questioning minds. So they are intelligent enough to carry out lets say a heart procedure but are too think to question their faith?

Now youre getting all combative on me, keep the faith.
I dont recall ascribing intelligence levels to beliefs as clearly there are plenty of people who are highly intelligent ( way so more than me) who also have faith in a supreme overlord.
If theyre unable to see past the smoke and mirrors of religious beliefs with all their intelligence and faculties intact then thats not my problem but it doesnt make them any less clever.

fizz47 said:

I wonder if our own Queen is a bit thick too, seeing as she is the head of the Church of England... Oh yes i forgot... we ignore that part of our British Culture. I do wonder what we should teach instead. How to be chavvy scum and not respect other people? Or maybe the best way to scrounge off the state?

The queen, thick? Whos to know.
Head of the church of england...so what?
Am I supposed to be impressed with her being head of the sky pixie club of the UK as if that legitimises the whole idiotic idea?
I fear youve strayed off the subject with your rant about chavvs, youve kind destroyed that part of your own argument however its not as though rotten, animalistic behavior is absent in the presence of religion, now is it?

fizz47 said:

Also a bit disturbing that you think the amount of followers = proves being indoctrined.

Unquestioning belief is the result of indoctrination, thats the whole idea.

fizz47 said:

Much more difficult to indoctrine people these days with so much information readily available on our fingertips so we can all make our own balanced judgement. Understandable if you are in the middle of the amazon where there is no infomration being passed back and forth but in this day and age we have more info at our disposal than is even necessary.

Edited by fizz47 on Tuesday 26th November 13:22

Yep I'd have to agree and the falling figures in true belief of sky friends is testament to that.
Long may it continue.

[Swervin_Mervin]

4v6 said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

Children are encouraged to read, including fictional works - do you think they all grow up believing everything that they've read?

Of course not, but if theyre told that the devil will get them if they dont say a certain verse 20 times a day, pray to mecca or bow down when the man with the dog collar says so then itll obviously impact on them, you only have to realise how many adults unquestioningly "believe" in sky pixies to know the answer to your particular question.
I'd suggest they were indoctrinated and the numbers of followers proves it to be so.
No way would a questioning mind take it on faith.

Yeah but AFAIA schools don't teach about religion like that That's more likely the home environment they grow up in.

[Swervin_Mervin]

otolith said:

Corpulent Tosser said:

Yes, they should know about these things, why would you want to limit a child's knowledge/experience.

Could we sum that up with a lesson that says "some people believe in all sorts of untrue nonsense"?

Very few things can be proven to be either true or untrue though, so how do you decide what to teach on that basis?

[otolith]

Corpulent Tosser said:

otolith said:

Corpulent Tosser said:

Yes, they should know about these things, why would you want to limit a child's knowledge/experience.

Could we sum that up with a lesson that says "some people believe in all sorts of untrue nonsense"?

You might be content with your children being taught only that, I wouldn't have been.

The thing is, there is enough untrue nonsense out there to fill the whole school syllabus. How are you going to decide which irrational beliefs you wish to tell them about?

[im]

Swervin_Mervin said:

Very few things can be proven to be either true or untrue though, so how do you decide what to teach on that basis?

What?!?!

OK...I'm in for a quid...some examples please.

[ewenm]

otolith said:

The thing is, there is enough untrue nonsense out there to fill the whole school syllabus. How are you going to decide which irrational beliefs you wish to tell them about?

I'd probably start with the basics of the big ones (by believer count) and work from there. You could use the lessons as valuable critical reasoning experience.

[Swervin_Mervin]

im said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

Very few things can be proven to be either true or untrue though, so how do you decide what to teach on that basis?

What?!?!

OK...I'm in for a quid...some examples please.

I probably worded that a little more simply than intended

What I meant was more that we never fully understand why things are the way they are. We're always learning more about things that we assume are known facts, so the known fact isn't actually ever so.

The implication that people who have religious faith believe in something which is untrue is simply not possible to prove or disprove.

[im]

Swervin_Mervin said:

The implication that people who have religious faith believe in something which is untrue is simply not possible to prove or disprove.

Using the same criteria, you're saying it's simply not possible to prove or disprove The Tooth Fairy or Father Christmas, yes?

[otolith]

Swervin_Mervin said:

im said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

Very few things can be proven to be either true or untrue though, so how do you decide what to teach on that basis?

What?!?!

OK...I'm in for a quid...some examples please.

I probably worded that a little more simply than intended

What I meant was more that we never fully understand why things are the way they are. We're always learning more about things that we assume are known facts, so the known fact isn't actually ever so.

The implication that people who have religious faith believe in something which is untrue is simply not possible to prove or disprove.

I was talking about astrology, phrenology and alchemy. If you wish to include these baseless and discredited belief systems, perhaps you would also wish to include discredited ideas about race, gender and eugenics?

[4v6]

Swervin_Mervin said:

I probably worded that a little more simply than intended

What I meant was more that we never fully understand why things are the way they are. We're always learning more about things that we assume are known facts, so the known fact isn't actually ever so.

The implication that people who have religious faith believe in something which is untrue is simply not possible to prove or disprove.

In such a case we have to work on the balance of probabilities.
Is it more probable that aeons ago a large explosion caused by circumstances unknown created the known universe and everything in it, or is it more probable that a big fella had some fun in his spare time, taking a kip on the last day of production and watches me through solid walls while I take a dump?

Its a toughy.

[Swervin_Mervin]

im said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

The implication that people who have religious faith believe in something which is untrue is simply not possible to prove or disprove.

Using the same criteria, you're saying it's simply not possible to prove or disprove The Tooth Fairy or Father Christmas, yes?

Theoretically, yes

Terry Pratchett delves into the idea in the Science of Discworld, with the opener that teachers are "liars to children".

[Einion Yrth]

Swervin_Mervin said:

Theoretically, yes

Terry Pratchett delves into the idea in the Science of Discworld, with the opener that teachers are "liars to children".

That actually contains a good idea. I would propose that virtually the only comparative religion kids need is to read a copy of "Small Gods".

[Swervin_Mervin]

otolith said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

im said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

Very few things can be proven to be either true or untrue though, so how do you decide what to teach on that basis?

What?!?!

OK...I'm in for a quid...some examples please.

I probably worded that a little more simply than intended

What I meant was more that we never fully understand why things are the way they are. We're always learning more about things that we assume are known facts, so the known fact isn't actually ever so.

The implication that people who have religious faith believe in something which is untrue is simply not possible to prove or disprove.

I was talking about astrology, phrenology and alchemy. If you wish to include these baseless and discredited belief systems, perhaps you would also wish to include discredited ideas about race, gender and eugenics?

This sort of debate could go on forever, and I need to get some work done! But teaching about such things, discredited or not, doesn't mean you teach them as fact, or as something that should be believed in i.e. you are not indoctrinating. Rather you are making people aware that historically people believed in these ideas, why they believed in them and, if you so wish, how/why they have been debunked. IMO education should be inclusive, not exclusive. The knowledge should be imparted for the next generation to take to a further level of understanding than our own.

Taking it back to the main topic of this thread (not the OP) teaching about religion is important - after all, ignorance breeds contempt and fear.

[Corpulent Tosser]

otolith said:

Corpulent Tosser said:

otolith said:

Corpulent Tosser said:

Yes, they should know about these things, why would you want to limit a child's knowledge/experience.

Could we sum that up with a lesson that says "some people believe in all sorts of untrue nonsense"?

You might be content with your children being taught only that, I wouldn't have been.

The thing is, there is enough untrue nonsense out there to fill the whole school syllabus. How are you going to decide which irrational beliefs you wish to tell them about?

Well I was at school a long time ago, and things have certainly changed regarding education, and not for the better IMO. We were taught the basics, reading writing, arithmetic, but we also got a broad range of other subjects, history, geography, handwork, PE and I think one short period a week was dedicated to religion, though at the time it was primarily christianity, we did touch on other religions. I think a more rounded education makes for the more rounded individual, I certainly see no harm in educating our children about aspects of other religions and cultures, particularly as they are gong to grow up in a multicultural society whether we like it or not.

[otolith]

Swervin_Mervin said:

otolith said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

im said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

Very few things can be proven to be either true or untrue though, so how do you decide what to teach on that basis?

What?!?!

OK...I'm in for a quid...some examples please.

I probably worded that a little more simply than intended

What I meant was more that we never fully understand why things are the way they are. We're always learning more about things that we assume are known facts, so the known fact isn't actually ever so.

The implication that people who have religious faith believe in something which is untrue is simply not possible to prove or disprove.

I was talking about astrology, phrenology and alchemy. If you wish to include these baseless and discredited belief systems, perhaps you would also wish to include discredited ideas about race, gender and eugenics?

This sort of debate could go on forever, and I need to get some work done! But teaching about such things, discredited or not, doesn't mean you teach them as fact, or as something that should be believed in i.e. you are not indoctrinating. Rather you are making people aware that historically people believed in these ideas, why they believed in them and, if you so wish, how/why they have been debunked. IMO education should be inclusive, not exclusive. The knowledge should be imparted for the next generation to take to a further level of understanding than our own.

Sure. But time is limited, and the set of knowledge I would prioritise ahead of those things wouldn't fit in the whole syllabus.

Swervin_Mervin said:

Taking it back to the main topic of this thread (not the OP) teaching about religion is important - after all, ignorance breeds contempt and fear.

I suspect that a rational analysis of religion is more likely than ignorance to leave one in contempt of it - however, I do agree that people should have a broad understanding of what the followers of the major religions believe. I don't think that needs a GCSE.

[standards]

4v6 said:

standards said:

Great response to a quite ridiculously small minded post. Thank you

Small minded because my viewpoint of religion and yours diverges sharply?
Great retort, a top trump, congrats, maybe youll live up to your poster name one day.
Explain why is your opinion of religion more valid than mine.
You think its fine that kids should be taught nonsense beliefs by faiths that find it a-ok to mutilate womens genitals, or stone rape victims to death, or force marriage onto young girls, or make them wear rent a tents to bizarrely "empower"?? them, or issue death threats to homosexuals, where I find those "beliefs" abhorrent, not to mention faiths that through deliberate misinformation condemn millions to die of HIV and aids as condoms "arent allowed in our club" to name a few.
If youre so happy with kids being brainwashed into believing sky fairy claptrap then youll have no issue with santa claus and the tooth fairy not to mention the pink elephants orbiting pluto or the whackjobs who believe in planet X or any other cultist belief systems.
In my opinion religions a barrier to progress, it always has been because far from allowing you to think freely it imposes its rigid framework upon its victims and doesnt encourage free thought, the answers are already made for you, all you have to do is "believe".
If you need any better demonstration of why religions a load, think about this- walk down any street in britain and tell people as you go that youre in personal contact with god, mumble away to him on your shoulder, stop and tell others in the street about this great convo youre having and how if you crack your nut off the wall enough times that he'll give you stuff, see how long before youre carted off to an institution and rightly so.
But then as long as they belong to a club, a faith and do it on prescribed days, its acceptable.
So what have we learned from this religious outing? That its best we keep our kids away from such types.

Any of the points on your morality compass sticking you in a tender spot yet?

Religion, keep it out of childrens minds.

I think children should be taught about religion/s and given the skills to critically evaluate those competing claims. If they reject them all then they've thought it through for themselves then fine. If find a faith then fine.

You seem to be saying that if they take the latter view they're misguided, wrong because they don't agree with your view.

You paint an almost cartoon villain view of religion. Some of the gory stories many youngsters enjoy. As stories. Stories which for historical reasons inform our culture

The Santa Claus analogy doesn't fit. At all. People in later life sometimes start developing a religious faith; no one starts believing in Santa Claus later in life.

Street thing doesn't apply-I'm C of E. Choral Evensong at the local cathedral apart from the beautiful music is a quiet, reflective affair. A quite well attended one.

This post started with a hamfisted attempt by a school to teach youngsters about a faith/culture.
I see education as preparation for life. Faiths are part of life, like it or not.

I'm quite happy for someone to live without a faith, delighted if they have one. You seem to be saying if they have a personal faith or tell someone else about it they are mad.

And yes I am quite clear about the harm that people have perpetrated in the name of religion. It is a powerful and ambivalent thing. Youngsters need to know about that. It'll need to be in their heads for them to reject or accept it.

Edited by standards on Tuesday 26th November 16:58

[einsign]

Corpulent Tosser said:

grow up in a multicultural society whether we like it or not.

This is the main issue...

[Corpulent Tosser]

My take on this thread was that the main issue was our children's education.