Scotland Helicopter Crash
Discussion
Scuffers said:
TheSnitch said:
Thanks for that - just one more question, then.(Sorry, I sound like Columbo)
If they are normally in the ''Off'' position, presumably one therefore has to manually switch them to ''On'' in order to access the fuel in the reserve, presumably in response to a low fuel warning. So at what fuel level would an alarm first sound, and how long in normal flying conditions would that be before the engine would flame out?
yes no..If they are normally in the ''Off'' position, presumably one therefore has to manually switch them to ''On'' in order to access the fuel in the reserve, presumably in response to a low fuel warning. So at what fuel level would an alarm first sound, and how long in normal flying conditions would that be before the engine would flame out?
yes it's a manual switch (well 2 actually, front and back of the tank)
No, I believe it's more to do with what your doing at the time as to if you have them on or off, there is an alarm to tell you they are running dry, (and that does not mean the main tank is empty, it can be because of attitude change of the 'copter).
some pilots elect to just leave them running all the time and only turn them off when the main is empty....
other point to remember is the supply tanks are not small:
TheSnitch said:
So can someone help me here - should the XFeR pump switches have been in the off position during the flight?
Apologies again for the questions - like I said, I know sod all about these things. Thanks.
If the pilot had assumed the main tank was empty, then yes, they should have been off. But the report suggests 76Kg remaining in the main tank (post impact, so some could have sloshed/drained there etc).Apologies again for the questions - like I said, I know sod all about these things. Thanks.
The "prime" pumps should only be used prior to engine start (the engines have there own mechanical HP pumps, but these don't 'suck well' at low rpm, so are assisted to prime quickly using the electric prime pumps)
The fact both prime pumps were selected to "On" suggests two possibles to me:
1) Pilot incorrectly turned on prime pumps, thinking they were the ATPs, by mistake, when the "yellow" low fuel warning first illuminated (possible, but unlikely given his hrs on type)
2) Pilot turned on prime pumps when engine power fell, reasoning that if it were a fuel issue, it wouldn't hurt. This would have occurred in the last few seconds of flight.
I wonder about the failed autorotation too. As the impact was relatively low energy, (fatal unfortunately, but low, as most of airframe was not destroyed), it is possible that the pilot entered AR correctly initially, but was forced to change the trajectory late in the AR, by an obstacle he hadn't seen or prepared for. If he carried out an emergency flair at say 300feet to avoid another building for example, decaying Nr critically, then the final impact would have been unavoidable.
Bit of an update - of sorts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west...
Mind you "Jordan", "Darren" and "Charmaine"?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west...
BBC said:
Three teenagers have admitted stealing alcohol, cash and charity tins from the Clutha bar in Glasgow, weeks after 10 people died in a helicopter crash.
Jordan Parry, 16, Darren Melrose, 18 and Charmaine Holmes, 17, pleaded guilty to breaking into the pub, while acting with another, on 17 December.
Utter, utter scum Jordan Parry, 16, Darren Melrose, 18 and Charmaine Holmes, 17, pleaded guilty to breaking into the pub, while acting with another, on 17 December.
Mind you "Jordan", "Darren" and "Charmaine"?
matchmaker said:
Utter, utter scum
Mind you "Jordan", "Darren" and "Charmaine"?
Reminds me of something...Mind you "Jordan", "Darren" and "Charmaine"?
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...
cat220 said:
matchmaker said:
Utter, utter scum
Mind you "Jordan", "Darren" and "Charmaine"?
Scum indeed! A public flogging is what they need. George square in Glasgow would be the perfect venue.Mind you "Jordan", "Darren" and "Charmaine"?
I'm sure Iran could give us a few pointers how to do it, especially as their President knows Glasgow well.
Have I been living underground or was there no news around the updated AAIB interim report:
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/AAI...
This says both engines flamed out and the pilot failed or couldn't auto rotate. The question seems to be why would both engines flame out when there was still fuel left in both tanks?
"In particular, the investigation will seek to determine why a situation arose that led to both
the helicopter’s engines flaming out when 76 kg of fuel remained in the fuel tank group, why
no emergency radio transmission was received from the pilot and why, following the double
engine failure, an autorotative descent and flare recovery was not achieved."
Makes for an interesting read though (still very sad and RIP to those how sadly lost their lives).
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/AAI...
This says both engines flamed out and the pilot failed or couldn't auto rotate. The question seems to be why would both engines flame out when there was still fuel left in both tanks?
"In particular, the investigation will seek to determine why a situation arose that led to both
the helicopter’s engines flaming out when 76 kg of fuel remained in the fuel tank group, why
no emergency radio transmission was received from the pilot and why, following the double
engine failure, an autorotative descent and flare recovery was not achieved."
Makes for an interesting read though (still very sad and RIP to those how sadly lost their lives).
I read that with interest and was left wondering whether the engines stopped as a result of fuel switches being in the "wrong" positions and the pilot was focussing his attention on putting them "right". Hence all the switches and valves found to be in correct positions in the crashed aircraft. It certainly sounds as though there was nothing mechanically wrong with the aircraft and low fuel warnings were given,
“The Warning Unit ... recorded intermittent LOW FUEL 1 warnings for the left fuel supply tank, then a permanent LOW FUEL 2 warning for the right fuel supply tank. This was followed by a further temporary LOW FUEL 1 warning, before it became permanent for the remainder of the flight. For this helicopter build configuration, they indicate when there is approximately 32 kg and 28 kg of fuel remaining in the left and right supply tanks, respectively.
“On receipt of these warnings, the manufacturer’s flight manual for the helicopter instructs the pilot to ‘LAND WITHIN 10 MINUTES’.
“The Warning Unit ... recorded intermittent LOW FUEL 1 warnings for the left fuel supply tank, then a permanent LOW FUEL 2 warning for the right fuel supply tank. This was followed by a further temporary LOW FUEL 1 warning, before it became permanent for the remainder of the flight. For this helicopter build configuration, they indicate when there is approximately 32 kg and 28 kg of fuel remaining in the left and right supply tanks, respectively.
“On receipt of these warnings, the manufacturer’s flight manual for the helicopter instructs the pilot to ‘LAND WITHIN 10 MINUTES’.
Ozzie Osmond said:
I read that with interest and was left wondering whether the engines stopped as a result of fuel switches being in the "wrong" positions and the pilot was focussing his attention on putting them "right". Hence all the switches and valves found to be in correct positions in the crashed aircraft. It certainly sounds as though there was nothing mechanically wrong with the aircraft and low fuel warnings were given,
“The Warning Unit ... recorded intermittent LOW FUEL 1 warnings for the left fuel supply tank, then a permanent LOW FUEL 2 warning for the right fuel supply tank. This was followed by a further temporary LOW FUEL 1 warning, before it became permanent for the remainder of the flight. For this helicopter build configuration, they indicate when there is approximately 32 kg and 28 kg of fuel remaining in the left and right supply tanks, respectively.
“On receipt of these warnings, the manufacturer’s flight manual for the helicopter instructs the pilot to ‘LAND WITHIN 10 MINUTES’.
I agree with what you say but I just don't understand why both engines flamed out when there was still fuel in the tanks?“The Warning Unit ... recorded intermittent LOW FUEL 1 warnings for the left fuel supply tank, then a permanent LOW FUEL 2 warning for the right fuel supply tank. This was followed by a further temporary LOW FUEL 1 warning, before it became permanent for the remainder of the flight. For this helicopter build configuration, they indicate when there is approximately 32 kg and 28 kg of fuel remaining in the left and right supply tanks, respectively.
“On receipt of these warnings, the manufacturer’s flight manual for the helicopter instructs the pilot to ‘LAND WITHIN 10 MINUTES’.
I've flown in EC135 T2's many times and I'm very interested to find out why this happened.
RobbyJ said:
I agree with what you say but I just don't understand why both engines flamed out when there was still fuel in the tanks?
I've flown in EC135 T2's many times and I'm very interested to find out why this happened.
read the report properly...I've flown in EC135 T2's many times and I'm very interested to find out why this happened.
there was no fuel in the two supply tanks, only the main tank and the xfer pumps were turned off.
Scuffers said:
there was no fuel in the two supply tanks, only the main tank, and the xfer pumps were turned off.
So where does that leave us?- Only 76 kg of fuel remained on board, yet the operational guide says an Emergency Condition exists if there won't be at least 85 kg of fuel left after the helicopter has landed (at night). So by the book it was significantly low on fuel before the incident.
- Real low fuel warnings were given at about 30 kg in each "engine supply tank" but were ignored by the pilot (in this case the correct response presumably being to switch on the transfer pumps and transfer some/all of the remaining 76 kg).
- One engine ran dry of fuel and stopped. The other tank never ran dry but the engine stopped. 0.4 kg of fuel found in the tank is only about one pint, so if it was slopping around a big tank might it have escaped the pickup?
- When the engines were stopping the pilot never implemented an "engines-off glide".
Six month detention for two of them 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west...
The beak said:
The offence occurred less than three weeks after the public house in question was the site of a serious accident in which 10 people lost their lives.
Accordingly, that you saw fit to commit this offence will have led, no doubt, to feelings of disgust amongst members of the public, and that term will go nowhere near the emotions felt by those who lost loved ones or friends in the incident.
Accordingly, that you saw fit to commit this offence will have led, no doubt, to feelings of disgust amongst members of the public, and that term will go nowhere near the emotions felt by those who lost loved ones or friends in the incident.
Ozzie Osmond said:
- Only 76 kg of fuel remained on board, yet the operational guide says an Emergency Condition exists if there won't be at least 85 kg of fuel left after the helicopter has landed (at night). So by the book it was significantly low on fuel before the incident.
- Real low fuel warnings were given at about 30 kg in each "engine supply tank" but were ignored by the pilot (in this case the correct response presumably being to switch on the transfer pumps and transfer some/all of the remaining 76 kg).
- One engine ran dry of fuel and stopped. The other tank never ran dry but the engine stopped. 0.4 kg of fuel found in the tank is only about one pint, so if it was slopping around a big tank might it have escaped the pickup?
- When the engines were stopping the pilot never implemented an "engines-off glide".
Design flaw in tank means a baffle retains the last of the fuel away from pumps which can only be accessed by hard nose down.
It was too low to auto rotate
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