Scotland Helicopter Crash

[Vanden Saab]

Crossflow Kid said:

No he didn’t. He ignored one warning, five times, which with things like low fuel isn’t uncommon nor outwardly reckless or negligent.
When the low fuel warning comes on in your car, d’you immediately divert to the nearest filling station?
(Yes, yes...I know...it isn’t a car)

Playing filling station roulette in your car does not result in falling out of the sky....

[Byker28i]

Or what was the operational requirement that meant they were pushing the endurance of the flight. Has that been answered?

[matchmaker]

Vanden Saab said:

Crossflow Kid said:

No he didn’t. He ignored one warning, five times, which with things like low fuel isn’t uncommon nor outwardly reckless or negligent.
When the low fuel warning comes on in your car, d’you immediately divert to the nearest filling station?
(Yes, yes...I know...it isn’t a car)

Playing filling station roulette in your car does not result in falling out of the sky....

Quite! I ignored the low fuel warning light and fuel gauge in my car as I though I had enough petrol. It was raining and I got soaked walking to the nearest petrol station with a can. Worse still, by the time I got going again it was after 10pm and the off-sales was shut!

[MarkJS]

Terrible. But (almost) equally as terrible is that it has taken this length of time to complete the inquiry due to a lack of money to fully carry it out. Seems absurd in a 'developed' country and after such a loss of life.

And Scotland wants its independence... (I say that as a Scot myself)

[anonymous-user]

matchmaker said:

Vanden Saab said:

Crossflow Kid said:

No he didn’t. He ignored one warning, five times, which with things like low fuel isn’t uncommon nor outwardly reckless or negligent.
When the low fuel warning comes on in your car, d’you immediately divert to the nearest filling station?
(Yes, yes...I know...it isn’t a car)

Playing filling station roulette in your car does not result in falling out of the sky....

Quite! I ignored the low fuel warning light and fuel gauge in my car as I though I had enough petrol. It was raining and I got soaked walking to the nearest petrol station with a can. Worse still, by the time I got going again it was after 10pm and the off-sales was shut!

So the very first time the fuel light comes on you divert to the nearest filling station or better still pull over and get the AA to bring you fuel?
No, thought not.
It’s a low fuel warning, not a no fuel warning, and it’s perfectly normal and widespread in aviation to continue in spite of the first few flickers of a low fuel caption. It’s pressing on when it’s been solidly illuminated for an extended period that it becomes fuel light roulette.

[Byker28i]

Crossflow Kid said:

So the very first time the fuel light comes on you divert to the nearest filling station or better still pull over and get the AA to bring you fuel?
No, thought not.
It’s a low fuel warning, not a no fuel warning, and it’s perfectly normal and widespread in aviation to continue in spite of the first few flickers of a low fuel caption. It’s pressing on when it’s been solidly illuminated for an extended period that it becomes fuel light roulette.

Really? The FAA used to require that an aircraft have enough fuel to travel 45 minutes beyond its scheduled arrival airport. Has that changed?
I know Ryanair got pulled for declaring emergencies for low fuel as they were running minimums

[KTF]

Byker28i said:

Really? The FAA used to require that an aircraft have enough fuel to travel 45 minutes beyond its scheduled arrival airport. Has that changed?
I know Ryanair got pulled for declaring emergencies for low fuel as they were running minimums

The rules may (probably are) be different for helicopters.

[Dr Jekyll]

KTF said:

Byker28i said:

Really? The FAA used to require that an aircraft have enough fuel to travel 45 minutes beyond its scheduled arrival airport. Has that changed?
I know Ryanair got pulled for declaring emergencies for low fuel as they were running minimums

The rules may (probably are) be different for helicopters.

And probably different again for police work as opposed to airline service.

There was a guy in the US operating a private MIG 21. Full tanks meant enough fuel for around 40 minutes flying, but once he'd taxied out to the runway he was down to about 35 minutes worth.

[anonymous-user]

Byker28i said:

Really? The FAA used to require that an aircraft have enough fuel to travel 45 minutes beyond its scheduled arrival airport. Has that changed?

How, by the very nature of its role, does a police helicopter schedule anything?

[ApexCult]

Crossflow Kid said:

Byker28i said:

Really? The FAA used to require that an aircraft have enough fuel to travel 45 minutes beyond its scheduled arrival airport. Has that changed?

How, by the very nature of its role, does a police helicopter schedule anything?

Presumably always take off with full tanks to ensure maximum sorties?

[ScotHill]

BBC article says pilot didn't follow procedure: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-glasgow...

[anonymous-user]

ApexCult said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Byker28i said:

Really? The FAA used to require that an aircraft have enough fuel to travel 45 minutes beyond its scheduled arrival airport. Has that changed?

How, by the very nature of its role, does a police helicopter schedule anything?

Presumably always take off with full tanks to ensure maximum sorties?

....which is what they do.
“Diversion fuel” remaining at the end of a sortie is something else entirely and not really relevant to local operations.
It’s intended more for when a commercial airliner or similar arrives at an airport that has closed since they took off or can’t accept them and thus they need to be able to divert.

[anonymous-user]

Crossflow Kid said:

It’s a low fuel warning, not a no fuel warning, and it’s perfectly normal and widespread in aviation to continue in spite of the first few flickers of a low fuel caption.

That's odd. The CAA's publication "Lasors, the guide for pilots" says

3.9 Fuel planning.

a) Always plan to land by the time the tank(s) are down to 1/4 tank or 45 minutes, but don't rely on the gauges or low fuel warning. Remember, a headwind may be stronger than forecast, which particularly affects slower flying helicopters.

[anonymous-user]

rockin said:

That's odd. The CAA's publication "Lasors, the guide for pilots" says

3.9 Fuel planning.

a) Always plan to land by the time the tank(s) are down to 1/4 tank or 45 minutes,

[souper]

What gets me is why is the reserve only in the control of the Pilot, with alarms going off 5 times.

You would think with smart onboard computers that after the 4th or 5th alarm the ECU would spot a lean condition and open the reserves, even opening the reserves manually costs nothing as the fuel is already on board.

[saaby93]

Ongoing

It looks like the pilot ignored a number of low fuel warnings
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-wes...

but why
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-wes...

Does it look like faulty fuel sensors may have meant that pilots ignored the level of fuel?

Then when the sensors gave a real low fuel warning ........

[Chicken Chaser]

I'm sure it's been mentioned earlier in the thread but they were a 3 crew and the observers have exactly the same awareness of captions so any audible and visual warning should have been met with some kind of alert by at least the front seat passenger. They would have also known the fuel minima at night and it's clearly displayed on the CWP. For them to blame the pilot would mean that the pilot would have had to ignore his crew as well as any warnings. I cannot believe they had sufficient notification and chose to ignore it. Any analogies made with cars simply don't work as the risk is infinitely greater in the event.

[hidetheelephants]

Disappointing that the FAI is dumping it all on the pilot; Airbus deserve at least as much opprobrium for allowing an aircraft type to fly around with regular false low fuel indication, that's a human factors accident waiting to happen, arguably so is the lack of switch differentiation with two identical toggles next to each other.

[anonymous-user]

Chicken Chaser said:

Any analogies made with cars simply don't work as the risk is infinitely greater in the event.

The point I was trying to make is that, unlike onboard Hollywood Airlines flight) a low fuel warning or any other warning for that matter doesn’t mean the aircraft will necessarily crash, invert, burst in to flame or simply drop out of the sky unless radical, extreme action is taken within ten seconds.