Ban smacking, children's tsar urges

Ban smacking, children's tsar urges

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Discussion

Timmy40

12,915 posts

197 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
I think no such thing. Some people cannot be reasoned with. Such people are shaped by their upbringing, as are we all. People who have been hit a lot sometimes, nor always, become unduly keen on hitting others.
yes

In just same sad/ironic way that many childhood abuse victims themselves grow up to be abusers.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Timmy40 said:
Breadvan72 said:
I think no such thing. Some people cannot be reasoned with. Such people are shaped by their upbringing, as are we all. People who have been hit a lot sometimes, nor always, become unduly keen on hitting others.
yes

In just same sad/ironic way that many childhood abuse victims themselves grow up to be abusers.
And just as many abused kids grow up vowing they will not to inflict that behaviour on others, Your point?

Timmy40

12,915 posts

197 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
Timmy40 said:
Breadvan72 said:
I think no such thing. Some people cannot be reasoned with. Such people are shaped by their upbringing, as are we all. People who have been hit a lot sometimes, nor always, become unduly keen on hitting others.
yes

In just same sad/ironic way that many childhood abuse victims themselves grow up to be abusers.
And just as many abused kids grow up vowing they will not to inflict that behaviour on others, Your point?
Quite simply that people who experience violence as children are more likely to be violent as adults. You must be hard of thinking not to have grasped that in my post.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
I have known quite a few little Damiens and Tristrams, brought up by simpering Oh! we don't smack our little treasure type parents, who have turned out to be amongst the nastiest little sh*ts I have ever come across, One unfortunately was my partners sisters son, so I had a first class opportunity to observe the effect of his upbringing, and attitude to hitting others, whilst not getting hit himself.
He tried some of his sh*t on me ...once, after that he never came near me, which was just how I wanted it.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Timmy40 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Timmy40 said:
Breadvan72 said:
I think no such thing. Some people cannot be reasoned with. Such people are shaped by their upbringing, as are we all. People who have been hit a lot sometimes, nor always, become unduly keen on hitting others.
yes

In just same sad/ironic way that many childhood abuse victims themselves grow up to be abusers.
And just as many abused kids grow up vowing they will not to inflict that behaviour on others, Your point?
Quite simply that people who experience violence as children are more likely to be violent as adults. You must be hard of thinking not to have grasped that in my post.
My God you are dumb! How do you come to the conclusion,( or that is `all' it is), that someone, who experiences violence are more likely to be violent themselves, what evidence do you have for this?

ofcorsa

3,527 posts

242 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
I don't think anyone has claimed that to be a great parent all it takes is not hitting your kid!

Also well done on showing that little kid who is boss, you seem really proud. I might punch a kitten tonight to see if I can re-create that feeling

Hoofy

76,253 posts

281 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
I have known quite a few little Damiens and Tristrams, brought up by simpering Oh! we don't smack our little treasure type parents, who have turned out to be amongst the nastiest little sh*ts I have ever come across, One unfortunately was my partners sisters son, so I had a first class opportunity to observe the effect of his upbringing, and attitude to hitting others, whilst not getting hit himself.
He tried some of his sh*t on me ...once, after that he never came near me, which was just how I wanted it.
I reckon his parents are the type to say things like, "we let him learn through his own mistakes" which means "we're too lazy to parent our child". I'd love to know how kids who experience few boundaries grow up. Do they just end up overdosing on drugs and drowning in their own vomit in their 20s? Or despise their parents for not disciplining them more while pushing buttons on a till for the next 40 years?

Had this displeasure of working with one such kid over the weekend. I don't think anyone has ever said "no" to him in the 7-8 years he's existed. Unfortunately for him, I treat everyone equally.

Reminds me of this: http://aesopsfables.org/F137_The-Thief-and-His-Mot...

Edited by Hoofy on Thursday 2nd July 17:35

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
ofcorsa said:
I don't think anyone has claimed that to be a great parent all it takes is not hitting your kid!

Also well done on showing that little kid who is boss, you seem really proud. I might punch a kitten tonight to see if I can re-create that feeling
Yup! It was extremely well done. For the first time in the little sh*ts life, he learned that hurting other people whilst not getting anything back in return, was not the way the world works, and was perhaps not something he should be doing any more. It an worked an absolute treat to the extent I never saw him hurting anyone else again (at least not whilst I was around)

Hugo a Gogo

23,378 posts

232 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
ofcorsa said:
I don't think anyone has claimed that to be a great parent all it takes is not hitting your kid!

Also well done on showing that little kid who is boss, you seem really proud. I might punch a kitten tonight to see if I can re-create that feeling
Yup! It was extremely well done. For the first time in the little sh*ts life, he learned that hurting other people whilst not getting anything back in return, was not the way the world works, and was perhaps not something he should be doing any more. It an worked an absolute treat to the extent I never saw him hurting anyone else again (at least not whilst I was around)
erm, but did you hit him and get nothing back in return?

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Hugo a Gogo said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
ofcorsa said:
I don't think anyone has claimed that to be a great parent all it takes is not hitting your kid!

Also well done on showing that little kid who is boss, you seem really proud. I might punch a kitten tonight to see if I can re-create that feeling
Yup! It was extremely well done. For the first time in the little sh*ts life, he learned that hurting other people whilst not getting anything back in return, was not the way the world works, and was perhaps not something he should be doing any more. It an worked an absolute treat to the extent I never saw him hurting anyone else again (at least not whilst I was around)
erm, but did you hit him and get nothing back in return?
No I didn't hit him, but made him understand, that hurting other people, could sort of hurt him too.
cause and effect, if you get my meaning.

Hugo a Gogo

23,378 posts

232 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
ofcorsa said:
I don't think anyone has claimed that to be a great parent all it takes is not hitting your kid!

Also well done on showing that little kid who is boss, you seem really proud. I might punch a kitten tonight to see if I can re-create that feeling
Yup! It was extremely well done. For the first time in the little sh*ts life, he learned that hurting other people whilst not getting anything back in return, was not the way the world works, and was perhaps not something he should be doing any more. It an worked an absolute treat to the extent I never saw him hurting anyone else again (at least not whilst I was around)
erm, but did you hit him and get nothing back in return?
No I didn't hit him, but made him understand, that hurting other people, could sort of hurt him too.
cause and effect, if you get my meaning.
ah so you taught him right from wrong without smacking

well done

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
P.s If you go on yootube and look for `fat kid finishes little kid', you might get an idea of the general scenario.

Hugo a Gogo

23,378 posts

232 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
the suplex/body slam thing? laugh
not really an advisable method of disciplining children

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Hugo a Gogo said:
the suplex/body slam thing? laugh
not really an advisable method of disciplining children
No, but in the instance shown, highly appropriate don't you think, P.s , just to add that is not what I did to the little sh*t in question! smile

SamHH

5,050 posts

215 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
My God you are dumb! How do you come to the conclusion,( or that is `all' it is), that someone, who experiences violence are more likely to be violent themselves, what evidence do you have for this?
I'm not sure if you're actually interested, but a quick Google reveals loads of literature. For example:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1478994...
http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/18/2/166.short?rss=...
http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-1284...

Clearly a very complex issue, and no study will offer definitive answers, but the papers I linked to are supportive of the position you are attacking.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
One Christmas my nephews & nieces were getting rowdy. My sister's dobermann has a lovely temperament and adores the kids- highly protective as if they were her own puppies. Nevertheless, the kids' behaviour was crossing a boundary.

Suddenly the dog leapt to her feet & nipped all the three kids on the thigh, with just enough pressure to put her point across. Consequently, the kids rapidly parked their rear ends on the sofa & quietened down.

It wasn't an attack- she would have been destroyed if we even vaguely suspected it. It was done as a disciplinary act and it worked superbly. The kids don't hate the dog, they don't fear the dog, they just respect her. We looked at the dog's actions & agreed they were considered & proportionate.

I don't kids so don't have an axe to grind one way or the other in this debate. I don't think you 'should' smack children, I certainly don't think you should 'beat' children (apropos of BV72's comments, there are a lot of emotive and/or misleading terms used by both sides of the debate).

I do, however, believe that smacking should be an available option. Not in anger, not for lack of any alternatives, purely for when it would be the most effective method of instilling a lesson.

"Law, without force, is impotent". (Blaise Pascal.)
I have read this humdinger a few times now. It is by far the most barking mad thing I have ever seen on PH, and that is saying something.

The dog's actions were "considered". This is a dog, right? A dog that understands proportionality? It should go on TV.

Top marks also for use of mealy mouthed euphemism. Nip. Not bite. Oh no. Just the application of teeth to a limb. Not a bite at all. You could nip your children yourself if the dog is busy considering stuff, or hasn't quite mastered proportionality principles. Nip, mind, not bite. After all, smacking someone isn't hitting someone. Or is it hitting unless you love the person you hit? Tricky set of rules you spare the rod types live by!


Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 2nd July 20:48

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
SamHH said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
My God you are dumb! How do you come to the conclusion,( or that is `all' it is), that someone, who experiences violence are more likely to be violent themselves, what evidence do you have for this?
I'm not sure if you're actually interested, but a quick Google reveals loads of literature. For example:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1478994...
http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/18/2/166.short?rss=...
http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-1284...

Clearly a very complex issue, and no study will offer definitive answers, but the papers I linked to are supportive of the position you are attacking.
Like you said no definitive answers. I have seen enough (and experienced) first hand the results of the simpering, new age we don't smack our children type upbringing to understand that it does not necessarily result in children who don't resort to violence.
When a child does not understand the pain it is inflicting on others, it will continue to do so, until it gets a dose of its own medicine, and begins to understand what it is doing to others,
One might have the ability to reason with an older child, but this is not the same for some younger children.
We give children a vaccine, which is the mild form of a virus, to prevent them from developing a more severe, life threatening form of the disease at a later date, Those who don't smack their kids when young, are those who don't even want to give their children some timely vaccine. in my book.

Tonberry

2,078 posts

191 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Someone raised the point over hitting other adults being illegal whilst we're free to smack our children which I think is central to the debate.

Why is one ok but not the other?

Similarly why are we perfectly happy dropping bombs on countries which aren't in tune with our way of thinking?

Because my friends, talking does indeed rarely solve a dispute.

To all those bleating on about being civilised people and reasoned arguement, what sort of sheltered environment did you grow up in?

Lest we not forget that our own country is founded on the colonisation and conquer of other nations.

Did we sail over and ask in our politest tone that perhaps those people should relinquish their land and fall under our rule?

It is a basic principle in both the animal world and ours that a food chain exists, one purely dominated by aggression and therefore power.

We are afterall nothing but animals despite what the arrogant of you may think.

Get off your high horses and consider it in it's basic form.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Tonberry said:
Someone raised the point over hitting other adults being illegal whilst we're free to smack our children which I think is central to the debate.

Why is one ok but not the other?

Similarly why are we perfectly happy dropping bombs on countries which aren't in tune with our way of thinking?

Because my friends, talking does indeed rarely solve a dispute.

To all those bleating on about being civilised people and reasoned arguement, what sort of sheltered environment did you grow up in?

Lest we not forget that our own country is founded on the colonisation and conquer of other nations.

Did we sail over and ask in our politest tone that perhaps those people should relinquish their land and fall under our rule?

It is a basic principle in both the animal world and ours that a food chain exists, one purely dominated by aggression and therefore power.

We are afterall nothing but animals despite what the arrogant of you may think.

Get off your high horses and consider it in it's basic form.
Not unlike having a nuclear deterrent, where other countries are not keen to attack a country with one, knowing they will get the same back if they do. Not ideal of course, but it is the way the world has worked since the first upright apes started walking about on it, Although we like to kid ourselves, that we have come a long way since them, as someone once pointed out we are only a few square meals away from returning to acting like little more than animals.

Tonberry

2,078 posts

191 months

Thursday 2nd July 2015
quotequote all
Exactly.

Take a look at how we loot and riot whenever we believe there to be lapse in law and order.

People fighting, pushing and jostling to make sure our gain is maximised.

Take a look at any mass stampede, the person standing next to you will happily climb over you to save their own skin.

We do whatever it takes to further ourselves at the expense of others.

We haven't progressed after millions of years on this planet and never will do as what we're ingrained with by nature cannot be removed or untaught.

This basic instinct manifests in other areas of our live whether we like it or not.