Ban smacking, children's tsar urges

[anonymous-user]

NWTony said:

Breadvan72 said:

I am not the one comparing the penal system to hitting children, you are. The inadequacies of the UK prison system (in PH hang'em flog'em terms, inadequate because 22 hours isn't long enough, I assume) have no bearing on whether adults should use violence against children.

That's true but your initial argumanet was that the imbalance of power and the use of force was the problem, which is the same MO as the state uses, presumably you are OK with punishment dished out by the state?

I'd say the point of any punishment is to associate an unwanted action with a negative consequence.

I do not think there are many valid comparisons between raising children and the criminal justice system. There is much to be criticised in the latter, but that is another thread (or 947 threads, this being PH). It is true that every State ultimately rests its power on coercion, the degree of coercion being moderated by consent according to the type of State that you are dealing with, but if there is a comparison between parenthood and a State, then the parent who smacks a child is analogous to the State that rules by fear and arbitrary decision.

I add that I am not a pacifist. The use of violence against adults is sometimes legitimate, when all else fails, but not as a punitive measure.

[standards]

Mrs Standards who whose work involves children in various circumstances argues that at any policy meeting/case conference each adult should have a slightly unruly two-three year old in the room with them to prevent 'Fantasy Island' decisions/rose coloured viewpoints concerning the loveliness or otherwise of the little darlings.

She is only partially joking.

[sparkythecat]

Catz said:

Interesting that a teacher with a group of 20-30 kids can manage their behaviour without smacking but some parents with 2-3 kids need to resort to smacking.

Teachers are educated and trained.
Relevant education and training are not mandatory prerequisites of of parenthood

[turbobloke]

sparkythecat said:

Catz said:

Interesting that a teacher with a group of 20-30 kids can manage their behaviour without smacking but some parents with 2-3 kids need to resort to smacking.

Teachers are educated and trained.
Relevant education and training are not mandatory prerequisites of of parenthood

Fair point but not all teachers with groups of 20 to 30 kids manage to keep control or anything resembling it, trained or not there is considerable variation as with parents. Traditionally, behaviour management has been one of the least well managed aspects of initial training and CPD, with large numbers of teachers exiting the profession each year due (they say) to pupil misbehaviour.

[lincsls2]

I was slapped (not beaten or punched) occasionally as a child for being naughty and it hasn't had any nasty effects on me. It taught me discipline and respect.
In fact, each of my friends were also on occasion slapped when they were deemed naughty. We (IMO) have all grown up into very decent people, we all have good jobs and have never been in trouble with the law.
Now, my wife happens to be a teacher and the stories I hear about how the current generation of children behave is quite scary. There is a general lack of respect for adults and seems no fear of consequence. Granted, not from all children, but even the better ones learn from the disruptive ones that the consequence of being naughty at school is nothing to be frightened of because teachers have minimal power in the class room.
I know when I was at school I wouldn't dream of swearing at a teacher, now it is common place.
Funny how the behaviour of young people in general has seemingly got worse in recent times, times in which laws relating to this topic have changed.

[Countdown]

As far as I'm aware laws around parents slapping children haven't changed. Bad behaviour in schools isn't caused by schools; it's caused by parents not having the skills/capabilities to raise their children correctly. That's assuming there are two parents at home.

[turbobloke]

Countdown said:

As far as I'm aware laws around parents slapping children haven't changed.

That's a curious reading of what lincsls2 said, which in my view related to pupil behaviour and the position of school teachers rather than parents.

[Countdown]

lincsls2 said:

I know when I was at school I wouldn't dream of swearing at a teacher, now it is common place.

So do I, but that was mainly through fear of upsetting my mum and dad, not from any threat of physical violence.

[Countdown]

lincsls2 said:

Now, my wife happens to be a teacher and the stories I hear about how the current generation of children behave is quite scary. There is a general lack of respect for adults and seems no fear of consequence. Granted, not from all children, but even the better ones learn from the disruptive ones that the consequence of being naughty at school is nothing to be frightened of because teachers have minimal power in the class room.

Lincsls2 - you refer to "better" children and "disruptive" ones. In your opinion what has made them "better" or "disruptive"? Is it the threat of being slapped at home?

[Rovinghawk]

'Law, without force, is impotent'
(Pascal)

[mph1977]

turbobloke said:

Countdown said:

As far as I'm aware laws around parents slapping children haven't changed.

That's a curious reading of what lincsls2 said, which in my view related to pupil behaviour and the position of school teachers rather than parents.

and although the law surrounding the interventions teachers can undertake haven;t changed since the bans on corporal punishment in Schools were fully enacted, the culture and local rules have made teachers much more reluctance to physically intervene or even raise their voice towards an individual ( as opposed to raising their voice to get the attention of a class)

[eldar]

Countdown said:

Lincsls2 - you refer to "better" children and "disruptive" ones. In your opinion what has made them "better" or "disruptive"? Is it the threat of being slapped at home?

My daughter is a teacher, her view is that 'better' children have parents who care, even if that includes a slap. Disruptive ones have parents that don't give a toss and ignore them, except when they are slapped for getting in the way of the next fix/drink/money raising shag.

[lincsls2]

Since a lot of members here admit to receiving the occasional slap when a child from their parents, would the majority now state they believe it was because their parents had poor/bad parenting skills?
That's what one or two posts here seem to suggest.
Well I tell you. I got the occasional slap and on reflection I still consider my parents to have done an excellent job of raising me, I don't think I would wildly change their methods. I wouldn't remove the slaps.
Lets hear what others that were slapped occasionally think.
Since my wife is a teacher, I also get to talk to others in the profession and the situation at their schools is much the same.
There are some real horrors in schools, very frightening and this is up North, would bet the situation in schools in poor parts of London for example will be much worse.

Edited by lincsls2 on Sunday 29th December 18:01

[lincsls2]

eldar said:

My daughter is a teacher, her view is that 'better' children have parents who care, even if that includes a slap. Disruptive ones have parents that don't give a toss and ignore them, except when they are slapped for getting in the way of the next fix/drink/money raising shag.

Agree 100%.
The better children have parents that care, but will also provide a consequence to bad actions at school to help the teachers teach right and wrong.
The disruptive children face little to no consequence from parents, see detention as a joke and rarely attend etc etc.

[lincsls2]

Countdown said:

Lincsls2 - you refer to "better" children and "disruptive" ones. In your opinion what has made them "better" or "disruptive"? Is it the threat of being slapped at home?

In this case, I doubt its because the better children are fearing a slap from home, because normally a slap is a short shock tactic spontaneously given in response to bad behaviour (well it was in my case).
It will be fearing a meaningful consequence such as reducing privileges.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

lincsls2 said:

Funny how the behaviour of young people in general has seemingly got worse in recent times,

Same old same old. Soppy old wkers always say that. Socrates wrote an essay on the kids of the day having no manners and lacking respect, and that was 3500 years ago.

[texaxile]

I thought Socrates died in 2011?.

[anonymous-user]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

lincsls2 said:

Funny how the behaviour of young people in general has seemingly got worse in recent times,

Same old same old. Soppy old wkers always say that. Socrates wrote an essay on the kids of the day having no manners and lacking respect, and that was 3500 years ago.

There are complaints about modern youth and about how good the good old days were etched in the cave dwellings of homo habilis.

[turbobloke]

Breadvan72 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

lincsls2 said:

Funny how the behaviour of young people in general has seemingly got worse in recent times,

Same old same old. Soppy old wkers always say that. Socrates wrote an essay on the kids of the day having no manners and lacking respect, and that was 3500 years ago.

There are complaints about modern youth and about how good the good old days were etched in the cave dwellings of homo habilis.

Rumour has it they banned cudgels in caveschool.

[anonymous-user]

It's all gone to the Pliocene dire wolves.