The truth about immigration

[pcvdriver]

Why can't people simply accept that it is only a small percentage of the 2.5 million that are ' career-unemployed" for want of a better phrase? I'm sure the majority find it offensive to be classed as a scrounger. Most immigrants leave professional jobs to come to the UK and feel that they will take anything going while they establish themselves. They take on the sttiest jobs that no-one else wants,?because they have a work ethic which our own minority do not have.
If employers did not try exploit immigrants by trying to pay substandard wages, then people would not be able to claim that they taking jobs with any credibility, instead it would be a case of best person for the job.

[irocfan]

Pappa Lurve said:

yet England would not exist if it was not for immigration, at least not with its amazing history and world beating successes.

oh - undoubtedly, however the issue is UNFETTERED immigration into what it realistically a small country with an infrastructure what can't realistically support it is a recipe for disaster (ok I'm now going to be compared to a certain mr E.Powell), however the facts are we are struggling to cope with the population size as it is further vast increases in population size will mean the trains or motorways etc already stretched to braking (ever tried the commuter lines at rush-hour) will just not cope... houses built on flood plains, problems with waste disposal, problems with newbies integrating etc etc

[Pappa Lurve]

Digga said:

Pappa Lurve said:

As a final thought, I would say over 80% of my social circle are no more than third generation, many are first or second. There tax pounds go a very long way! Every generation moans about this yet England would not exist if it was not for immigration, at least not with its amazing history and world beating successes.

Recent surveys suggest (I agree there are lies, damn lies and statistics) that around three quarters of all first and second generation immigrants want tighter contrls to immigration.

My only social contact is with immigrants (1st, but mostly 2nd gen) who have arrived here wanting to be British, but it would seem that many of them share similar concerns. To put it in basic terms; people want to come to live here because it's generally a nice place to live and they don't want that spoilled by those who aren't going to be a part of that or who - for various reasons - may be detrimental to it.

And that is a good way of saying that they come here, they get a job, contribute, pay rtaxes etc but don;t want the next generation in who will not do the same. Why would they not do the same? All the evidance shows that immigrants claim less, are more likely to be in work etc based on what I have read. I am not advocating unlimited but I simp[luy don;t see immigration as a problem.

America went from a backwater to a powerhouse in roughly 100 years. Immigration was huge.

British Empire had rather a lot of non Brits working in it.

Israel which is arguably the strongest and certaionly the most diverse economy in the ME is something like 65% first or second gen.

Australia did ok out of it too

Roman Empire actually sought out others to bring them into the fold.

William pitched up here in 1066 and imported immigrants rapidly to fill the skills gap.

I am slightly struggling to think of examples the other way around where an exclusive protectionist society has flourished well for a prolonged period. Not saying there is not one, just cant think of one.

I tend to feel that histroy tells us much of the lessons we need to know and to me, this is a case in point.

[Digga]

Pappa Lurve said:

Digga said:

Pappa Lurve said:

As a final thought, I would say over 80% of my social circle are no more than third generation, many are first or second. There tax pounds go a very long way! Every generation moans about this yet England would not exist if it was not for immigration, at least not with its amazing history and world beating successes.

Recent surveys suggest (I agree there are lies, damn lies and statistics) that around three quarters of all first and second generation immigrants want tighter contrls to immigration.

My only social contact is with immigrants (1st, but mostly 2nd gen) who have arrived here wanting to be British, but it would seem that many of them share similar concerns. To put it in basic terms; people want to come to live here because it's generally a nice place to live and they don't want that spoilled by those who aren't going to be a part of that or who - for various reasons - may be detrimental to it.

And that is a good way of saying that they come here, they get a job, contribute, pay rtaxes etc but don;t want the next generation in who will not do the same. Why would they not do the same? All the evidance shows that immigrants claim less, are more likely to be in work etc based on what I have read. I am not advocating unlimited but I simp[luy don;t see immigration as a problem.

America went from a backwater to a powerhouse in roughly 100 years. Immigration was huge.

British Empire had rather a lot of non Brits working in it.

Israel which is arguably the strongest and certaionly the most diverse economy in the ME is something like 65% first or second gen.

Australia did ok out of it too

Roman Empire actually sought out others to bring them into the fold.

William pitched up here in 1066 and imported immigrants rapidly to fill the skills gap.

I am slightly struggling to think of examples the other way around where an exclusive protectionist society has flourished well for a prolonged period. Not saying there is not one, just cant think of one.

I tend to feel that histroy tells us much of the lessons we need to know and to me, this is a case in point.

I'm simply stating the facts, as quoted by the BBC programme of the OP.

Don't start on about the Romans, you of all people, working in construction, should know how little they did for us.

[Pappa Lurve]

LOL about Romans and a good point, other than Law, Sanitation..... :-P

Our infrastructure does need work but it really is not as broken as poeple think. To make it better we need investment obviously and some of that needs to come from the prosperity we get to some extent from immigrants.

We aslo still come back to the same point - there is not unfetterd access to the UK other than within the EU. That being the case, and consider we enjoy reciprocal legal rights, and considering that dumping the EU is, IMHO, a terrible mistake, we have very limited optins, even if I agreed with your basic premise whihc, respectfully, I don't clearly cos if I did, this would be a very short thread!

[Digga]

Pappa Lurve said:

We aslo still come back to the same point - there is not unfetterd access to the UK other than within the EU.

Not quite, because what is apparent is that there are no controls in place to monitor illegal immigrants from outside of the EU either. At the moment, all the high-profile activity is tantamount to closing the stable door after the horse has been allowed to bolt by the last government.

[Mrr T]

porridge said:

Many Migrants take out a loan back home to fund the trip and the initial cost- this cash is what the Tourist Visa will see and be allowed on. Letters proving things are very easily faked.

You obviously think the staff at the UK visa offices must be stupid. They will not just want one bank statement. They will want over a years to prove any salary is regularly received. They will want evidence of work over at least a year. If they have any suspicions they will ask permission to call the company you work for to make sure its all genuine.

[porridge]

Mrr T said:

porridge said:

Many Migrants take out a loan back home to fund the trip and the initial cost- this cash is what the Tourist Visa will see and be allowed on. Letters proving things are very easily faked.

You obviously think the staff at the UK visa offices must be stupid. They will not just want one bank statement. They will want over a years to prove any salary is regularly received. They will want evidence of work over at least a year. If they have any suspicions they will ask permission to call the company you work for to make sure its all genuine.

They are not stupid, they follow procedures. Computer says yes, computer says no. If anything we are currently turning down work visas for valuable skilled immigrants from non-EU as we can't stop EU- just to meet camerons 'tens of thousands'number game pledge.

I repeat dodgy bank statements or deliberate payments overtime from a loan + fake docs are easy to find in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh peasant villages.

[Pappa Lurve]

porridge said:

Mrr T said:

porridge said:

Many Migrants take out a loan back home to fund the trip and the initial cost- this cash is what the Tourist Visa will see and be allowed on. Letters proving things are very easily faked.

You obviously think the staff at the UK visa offices must be stupid. They will not just want one bank statement. They will want over a years to prove any salary is regularly received. They will want evidence of work over at least a year. If they have any suspicions they will ask permission to call the company you work for to make sure its all genuine.

They are not stupid, they follow procedures. Computer says yes, computer says no. If anything we are currently turning down work visas for valuable skilled immigrants from non-EU as we can't stop EU- just to meet camerons 'tens of thousands'number game pledge.

I repeat dodgy bank statements or deliberate payments overtime from a loan + fake docs are easy to find in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh peasant villages.

I am sure they are easy to fake but I am sure the burden is higher than simply one bit of paper. Do you actually know this stuff fopr certain and if so, how so? I ask only as my own, granted very minimal experiance, would suggest they are actually pretty detailed in their checks and take very little on face value.

I wonder if illegal immigration is actually such a huge issue. There seems to be no real way of knowing the nymbers. I am 100% certain that people are here illegally of course, no way can one say otherwise, but I do wonder if it is really a significant number. Hard to get figures for obvious reasons but I suspect that compared toi the overall immigrant population, the number is prett low. Plus they can't claim benefits at all, other than NHS emergency treatments.

[porridge]

Pappa Lurve said:

I am sure they are easy to fake but I am sure the burden is higher than simply one bit of paper. Do you actually know this stuff for certain and if so, how so? I ask only as my own, granted very minimal experiance, would suggest they are actually pretty detailed in their checks and take very little on face value.

I wonder if illegal immigration is actually such a huge issue. There seems to be no real way of knowing the nymbers. I am 100% certain that people are here illegally of course, no way can one say otherwise, but I do wonder if it is really a significant number. Hard to get figures for obvious reasons but I suspect that compared toi the overall immigrant population, the number is prett low. Plus they can't claim benefits at all, other than NHS emergency treatments.

Official estimate of illegals is 600k (as per the BBC programme this week), so real number will be higher.


How can they be detailed in their checks when an option is to show at border!

border control said:

If you apply for a visa, you should provide these documents with your visa application. If you travel to the UK without a visa, you should bring them with you so that you can show them to our officers at the border.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/visiting/general/documents/

- Passport CHECK
- Letter of employment- A letter on headed paper will do, just make sure the phone rings to a mates home as suspect all those 1 man businesses in the 3rd world won't be on a companies house.
- bank Statements from last 6 months, guessing they will also have sites that provide 'novelty' copies as we do http://www.replaceyourdocs.co.uk/
- Payslips- doubt a large part of 3rd world get these, again faked
- Email booking of hotel confirmation, easy enough.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/docu...

Whilst I know they are clamping down since Cameron came to office with his stupid numbers pledge, docs required are still manageable.

[Fab32]

Rich A said:

SILICONEKID346HP said:

Did you know it costs £100 for a interpreter every time a non English speaker goes to the Doctors !

The weird thing is a lot of the EU countries do not offer this service ,so why us ?

Seems like a pretty good service to offer imho, provided the patient pays for it (directly or on travel insurance) if they require it. I cannot comprehend what the justification for the NHS footing this bill was.

Could you supply some evidence to back this up as whenever I need an interpreter it is £35 for the first hour and £25 for each hour after?

[Foppo]

Mrr T said:

So you compare a drive from Gatwick to one in some unnamed part of Spain. Great evidence. I have driven in Madrid its murder.

Drive in Rotterdam Antwerpen Amsterdam talk about overcrowding.>

[4v6]

Once drove a Sikh customer home from the garage while his car was being repaired.
His opinion of what immigration was doing to the country couldnt be repeated and that was coming from an immigrant, very much an eye opener.

[Efbe]

I have found that here is the UK, we are completely novice at racism. seriously we are not even in the same ballpark as india, china, japan, poland, russia, or most other countries.

it is funny that we link immigration to racism however, but we do in a bizarre way.

[Foppo]

Racism can be very subtle,you don't have to shout it from the rooftop.

[pcvdriver]

Foppo said:

Racism can be very subtle,you don't have to shout it from the rooftop.

+1 Racism/xenophobia within the Tories and especially lunatic Kippers is thinly veiled and their narrow minded supporters lap it up. If as a country/separate countries (hopefully) we do not massively encourage large scale immigration over the next 50 years......we are ALL fked..... http://niesr.ac.uk/press/can-ageing-scotland-affor...

[pcvdriver]

dandarez said:

Agree. Statistics and official figures never tell the truth. Best way is to use your eyes and ears, then you'll know the real picture.
A deaf person could tell you we are now overpopulated.
A blind man could hazard a reasonable guess at Witney's Polish population!!

Drove for nearly 2 hours while in Spain to get to the airport, no hold ups and free-moving traffic.
Landed at Gatwick in very early hours. What is immediately apparent on over 100 mile journey home are the volumes of traffic - hardly any different to the rush hour!
We are overcrowded. Simples.

Try living outwith SE England - loads of room and empty roads.....especially in Scotland ( and Northern parts of England......don't want to be accused of being unnecessarily partisan).. Admittedly we do need to invest massively in the required infrastruucture over the next 50 years to do so, but the alternative is unthinkable

[HonestIago]

pcvdriver said:

+1 Racism/xenophobia within the Tories and especially lunatic Kippers is thinly veiled and their narrow minded supporters lap it up. If as a country/separate countries (hopefully) we do not massively encourage large scale immigration over the next 50 years......we are ALL fked..... http://niesr.ac.uk/press/can-ageing-scotland-affor...

Of course it is a known fact that immigrants do not age... You are completely warped..you WANT MORE mass immigration? You want the country of our grandparents to be COMPLETELY unrecognisable?

What is it that drives your hatred of your nation and yourself such that you view a desire not to be swamped by the third world as xenophobia? You must really hate the likes of Australia and Canada...

Of course we have problems with our aging population but mass immigration is NOT the answer and most sane people agree. I am a Scot but feel more of a Brit simply because I detest the socialist politics of Scotland. I would HATE for Scotland to suffer the sort of mass uncontrolled immigration that folks down south have had forced upon them. Yet this is exactly what Salmond will do if we vote Yes, yet many do not realise this. You, however, seem to welcome it...

[Mrr T]

porridge said:

Official estimate of illegals is 600k (as per the BBC programme this week), so real number will be higher.

Wiki quote:

"Although it is difficult to know how many people reside in the UK without authorisation, a Home Office study based on Census 2001 data released in March 2005 estimated a population of between 310,000 and 570,000.[1]

More recently, a study carried out by a research team at LSE for the Greater London Authority estimated the undocumented migrant population of the UK by updating the Home Office study. The LSE's study takes into account other factors not included in the previous estimate, namely the continued arrival of asylum seekers, the clearance of the asylum applications backlog, further undocumented migrants entering and leaving the country, more migrants overstaying, and the regularisation of EU accession citizens.

The most significant change in this estimate is however the inclusion of children born in the UK to undocumented migrants. For the LSE team undocumented migrants oscillate between 417,000 and 863,000, including a population of UK-born children ranging between 44,000 and 144,000."

porridge said:

How can they be detailed in their checks when an option is to show at border!

border control said:

If you apply for a visa, you should provide these documents with your visa application. If you travel to the UK without a visa, you should bring them with you so that you can show them to our officers at the border.

Please do not believe everything posted on PH. A search of the Border Control web site does not indicate you can apply for a visa at point of entry to the UK no matter what country you come from. There are countries you can apply on line but most require personal applications. I can assure you the checks are very thorough.

[Mrr T]

Foppo said:

Mrr T said:

So you compare a drive from Gatwick to one in some unnamed part of Spain. Great evidence. I have driven in Madrid its murder.

Drive in Rotterdam Antwerpen Amsterdam talk about overcrowding.>

The worst I have driven in is actually Bucharest.