The truth about immigration
Discussion
DJRC said:
Time for another bonfire of the ignorant muppets again is it? The amount of money our foreign earners are taking out of the economy is chicken feed s
t. This is especially true when you look at the other side of the ledger. Have you got any idea how much mercenary piratical bds like me steal out of foreign economies? Billions. Because the thousands of working Brit ex pats are paid in the hundreds of thousands of pounds not the minimum wage. And we send the vast majority of it back into the UK economy. The ledger balances very much on the UK side.
Indeed, the same thing happens with EU trade. I sell to France, Holland, Italy, Ireland etc and pay Corporation Tax on the profit in the UK, we hear a lot about Starbucks, Amazon et al selling to the UK without paying any CT here but the same thing happens in reverse.t. This is especially true when you look at the other side of the ledger. Have you got any idea how much mercenary piratical bds like me steal out of foreign economies? Billions. Because the thousands of working Brit ex pats are paid in the hundreds of thousands of pounds not the minimum wage. And we send the vast majority of it back into the UK economy. The ledger balances very much on the UK side.league67 said:
It seems that quite a few people like your post. If I may ask few questions;
1) Will those 6 quid buy petrol for Polish worker to get to work?
2) If you pay people in Tesco and Starbucks 24 quid an hour, what do you think would happen to prices of their respective products?
1.No,but what they have left over will go a lot further in Poland.1) Will those 6 quid buy petrol for Polish worker to get to work?
2) If you pay people in Tesco and Starbucks 24 quid an hour, what do you think would happen to prices of their respective products?
2.Not necessarily 24 quid an hour but a far fairer wage,what these companies don't realise is that without the little people at the bottom they would have no business.
Mojocvh said:
1. No but if they, oddly enough, club together...
2. Tell us your angle then, I don't think that very much would actually happen at all tbh.
I can't tell if they are serious answers. You think that increasing labour cost four times will not have an effect on consumer prices? 2. Tell us your angle then, I don't think that very much would actually happen at all tbh.
I don't know what to say to that.
league67 said:
Mojocvh said:
1. No but if they, oddly enough, club together...
2. Tell us your angle then, I don't think that very much would actually happen at all tbh.
I can't tell if they are serious answers. You think that increasing labour cost four times will not have an effect on consumer prices? 2. Tell us your angle then, I don't think that very much would actually happen at all tbh.
I don't know what to say to that.
league67 said:
You think that increasing labour cost four times will not have an effect on consumer prices?
If the EU have their way, labour costs will rise.http://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/02/13/should-the...
Funkycoldribena said:
league67 said:
It seems that quite a few people like your post. If I may ask few questions;
1) Will those 6 quid buy petrol for Polish worker to get to work?
2) If you pay people in Tesco and Starbucks 24 quid an hour, what do you think would happen to prices of their respective products?
1.No,but what they have left over will go a lot further in Poland.1) Will those 6 quid buy petrol for Polish worker to get to work?
2) If you pay people in Tesco and Starbucks 24 quid an hour, what do you think would happen to prices of their respective products?
2.Not necessarily 24 quid an hour but a far fairer wage,what these companies don't realise is that without the little people at the bottom they would have no business.
2) I didn't come up with 24/h. You did. Fairer wage is meaningless as it means different things to different people, to some 6/h is fair. If you want to come up with another figure, that is also ok.
steveT350C said:
Honest decent hard working tradesman in the Home Counties with 2 kids and a mortgage are seriously suffering due to cheap labour from Eastern Europe. Simple fact.
These suffering local tradesman, some I went to school with, I either hire or are mates, or indeed both. They are being seriously undercut, or, are loosing jobs outright because they are honest and cannot take cash in hand jobs. The cash in hand labour / trade market is booming, to the detriment of said mates and Gov tax revenue
We are looking for a tiler and a plumber in Northampton or thereabouts. Daily rates quoted are between £200 and £250. First available person, with references, can start mid August. I wouldn't call that suffering. These suffering local tradesman, some I went to school with, I either hire or are mates, or indeed both. They are being seriously undercut, or, are loosing jobs outright because they are honest and cannot take cash in hand jobs. The cash in hand labour / trade market is booming, to the detriment of said mates and Gov tax revenue
Edited by steveT350C on Tuesday 3rd June 20:53
Saying that, we did let one person go, as he arrived at 11:48, without even bothering with an excuse.
As for cash in hand payment, isn't that the norm with trades. We do require invoice with description of works undertaken, but that is purely for us as a way of recourse if things do go wrong.
league67 said:
mrpurple said:
league67 said:
mrpurple said:
I'm sure you will think of something...if only to entertain yourself.
You seem to imply that typing random things on forum for entertainment is a bad thing. Why are you on PH?league67 said:
steveT350C said:
Honest decent hard working tradesman in the Home Counties with 2 kids and a mortgage are seriously suffering due to cheap labour from Eastern Europe. Simple fact.
These suffering local tradesman, some I went to school with, I either hire or are mates, or indeed both. They are being seriously undercut, or, are loosing jobs outright because they are honest and cannot take cash in hand jobs. The cash in hand labour / trade market is booming, to the detriment of said mates and Gov tax revenue
We are looking for a tiler and a plumber in Northampton or thereabouts. Daily rates quoted are between £200 and £250. First available person, with references, can start mid August. I wouldn't call that suffering. These suffering local tradesman, some I went to school with, I either hire or are mates, or indeed both. They are being seriously undercut, or, are loosing jobs outright because they are honest and cannot take cash in hand jobs. The cash in hand labour / trade market is booming, to the detriment of said mates and Gov tax revenue
Edited by steveT350C on Tuesday 3rd June 20:53
Saying that, we did let one person go, as he arrived at 11:48, without even bothering with an excuse.
As for cash in hand payment, isn't that the norm with trades. We do require invoice with description of works undertaken, but that is purely for us as a way of recourse if things do go wrong.
No, 'cash in hand' is a term used where no invoices are issued, it's basically black market.
steveT350C said:
league67 said:
steveT350C said:
Honest decent hard working tradesman in the Home Counties with 2 kids and a mortgage are seriously suffering due to cheap labour from Eastern Europe. Simple fact.
These suffering local tradesman, some I went to school with, I either hire or are mates, or indeed both. They are being seriously undercut, or, are loosing jobs outright because they are honest and cannot take cash in hand jobs. The cash in hand labour / trade market is booming, to the detriment of said mates and Gov tax revenue
We are looking for a tiler and a plumber in Northampton or thereabouts. Daily rates quoted are between £200 and £250. First available person, with references, can start mid August. I wouldn't call that suffering. These suffering local tradesman, some I went to school with, I either hire or are mates, or indeed both. They are being seriously undercut, or, are loosing jobs outright because they are honest and cannot take cash in hand jobs. The cash in hand labour / trade market is booming, to the detriment of said mates and Gov tax revenue
Edited by steveT350C on Tuesday 3rd June 20:53
Saying that, we did let one person go, as he arrived at 11:48, without even bothering with an excuse.
As for cash in hand payment, isn't that the norm with trades. We do require invoice with description of works undertaken, but that is purely for us as a way of recourse if things do go wrong.
No, 'cash in hand' is a term used where no invoices are issued, it's basically black market.
ETA : Re-reading your original post, out of interest, who do you blame for 'cash-in-hand' jobs? I wouldn't accept anyone doing any work whatsoever without an invoice, regardless of their origin (which in any case, is pretty irrelevant).
Edited by league67 on Tuesday 3rd June 22:12
So what do you suggest for my mates and local tradesman who are being massively undercut and losing work, struggling to pay their mortgage etc, by immigrants who have minimal overheads due to their living lifestyle and willingness to work under the radar?
Any genuine advice would be appreciated.
Any genuine advice would be appreciated.
steveT350C said:
So what do you suggest for my mates and local tradesman who are being massively undercut and losing work, struggling to pay their mortgage etc, by immigrants who have minimal overheads due to their living lifestyle and willingness to work under the radar?
Any genuine advice would be appreciated.
As you (they?) see it, it's a two pronged problem, one is a lifestyle, and I don't know how to address that, but for the second one, I would equally blame people accepting work without asking for invoice. I'm sure HMRC would be more than interested to find out about it.Any genuine advice would be appreciated.
I'm also unsure why would imply correlation between being an immigrant and willingness to break tax laws. If that was not what you were saying, I'll happily take that back.
Some work is outsourced to different countries altogether. Call centres and the like. No level of immigration control will stop that. From my, very limited direct, experience, trades are in a very good position as they are required to be physically present. The answer seems to be to adapt, to find your (their?) own USP.
league67 said:
steveT350C said:
So what do you suggest for my mates and local tradesman who are being massively undercut and losing work, struggling to pay their mortgage etc, by immigrants who have minimal overheads due to their living lifestyle and willingness to work under the radar?
Any genuine advice would be appreciated.
As you (they?) see it, it's a two pronged problem, one is a lifestyle, and I don't know how to address that, but for the second one, I would equally blame people accepting work without asking for invoice. I'm sure HMRC would be more than interested to find out about it.Any genuine advice would be appreciated.
I'm also unsure why would imply correlation between being an immigrant and willingness to break tax laws. If that was not what you were saying, I'll happily take that back.
Some work is outsourced to different countries altogether. Call centres and the like. No level of immigration control will stop that. From my, very limited direct, experience, trades are in a very good position as they are required to be physically present. The answer seems to be to adapt, to find your (their?) own USP.
AIUI, what hes saying is an immigrant can far undercut a UK worker as they dont need to earn as much.If a UK tradesman needs say 4k a month to run his family an immigrant could easily do it on 3k living 5/6/7 to a house while sending say 1k back to his family which would be a small fortune in his native country.Nothing particulary to do with invoices and tax.
Funkycoldribena said:
I think you're completely missing the point.
AIUI, what hes saying is an immigrant can far undercut a UK worker as they dont need to earn as much.If a UK tradesman needs say 4k a month to run his family an immigrant could easily do it on 3k living 5/6/7 to a house while sending say 1k back to his family which would be a small fortune in his native country.Nothing particulary to do with invoices and tax.
I find it interesting that you didn't reply to my post to you. Alas, lets deal with this one. AIUI, what hes saying is an immigrant can far undercut a UK worker as they dont need to earn as much.If a UK tradesman needs say 4k a month to run his family an immigrant could easily do it on 3k living 5/6/7 to a house while sending say 1k back to his family which would be a small fortune in his native country.Nothing particulary to do with invoices and tax.
I probably am missing the point.
As I've already said, I have no answer to that particular problem (lifestyle). What if another local tiler is happy to work for a lot less, or travel from less expensive parts of the country? As for immigrants living in a '5/6/7 to a house'. Or that they want to send money somewhere else. I don't know any immigrants who live like that, but I'm sure that they do exist.
To which I have following question. What if the work is not a trade, but something that can be outsourced. Let's take random example of PHP programmer, (random figures), in London, php programmer costs £50k, in Mumbai, £5k. Cost of living in Mumbai (please don't get hang up on this particular example), will be less than 1/10th. There are a lot of jobs that can be easily outsourced. So what are the options for UK based programmer. They can lower their expectations and try to compete on price only. Or they can differentiate themselves and find their USP.
I'd use the same solution to tradesmen. Find something that your competition doesn't offer. References, better quality work, being punctual, provide recommendation for complementary trades. Whatever works.
As for relevance of invoicing and taxes, re-read Steve's post, I think you'll find the answer there as to the relevance.
Funkycoldribena said:
I think you're completely missing the point.
AIUI, what hes saying is an immigrant can far undercut a UK worker as they dont need to earn as much.If a UK tradesman needs say 4k a month to run his family an immigrant could easily do it on 3k living 5/6/7 to a house while sending say 1k back to his family which would be a small fortune in his native country.Nothing particulary to do with invoices and tax.
What if the tradesman is a young, single English man living with his parents, or an older man whose mortgage is paid off and kids left home? Presumably they could undercut the immigrants because their cost of living is lower still? Can't say that I've ever witnessed the phenomenon personally...AIUI, what hes saying is an immigrant can far undercut a UK worker as they dont need to earn as much.If a UK tradesman needs say 4k a month to run his family an immigrant could easily do it on 3k living 5/6/7 to a house while sending say 1k back to his family which would be a small fortune in his native country.Nothing particulary to do with invoices and tax.
As for the cash in hand problem, that's been around since Noah was a lad, it's far from being an immigrant only issue.
I reckon league is being somewhat naive thinking that asking for an invoice stops someone keeping a job paid for in cash completely or partly off the books and thus below the tax authority radar.
It's also true that the cash in hand issue has been around for almost ever. Can think of one landscaping job where cash in hand saved 30k. Someone keeping themselves legit has no chance of competing with that. Hertfordshire if that adds to league's geographical non knowledge.
It must be easier for a relatively new migrant business to be off radar. There are legal ways to keep below the VAT registration limit for any tradesman business, e.g. the only money which goes through the business is the daily rate and a few limited consumables. Customers buy the major equipment direct from the tradesman's suppliers at trade prices. Each trade paid individually direct to the man attending. But this is not the total answer especially the issue of lifestyle and costs of maintaining the tradesman's house and home.
It's also true that the cash in hand issue has been around for almost ever. Can think of one landscaping job where cash in hand saved 30k. Someone keeping themselves legit has no chance of competing with that. Hertfordshire if that adds to league's geographical non knowledge.
It must be easier for a relatively new migrant business to be off radar. There are legal ways to keep below the VAT registration limit for any tradesman business, e.g. the only money which goes through the business is the daily rate and a few limited consumables. Customers buy the major equipment direct from the tradesman's suppliers at trade prices. Each trade paid individually direct to the man attending. But this is not the total answer especially the issue of lifestyle and costs of maintaining the tradesman's house and home.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff