The truth about immigration
Discussion
league67 said:
My English geography, even after all these years, is abysmal. I can't comment on situation in Home Counties, as I have no knowledge of the situation there. If anything, I'd assume that prices that trades command, based on my experience both here and in London, would be even higher, but obviously that assumption is wrong.
ETA : Re-reading your original post, out of interest, who do you blame for 'cash-in-hand' jobs? I wouldn't accept anyone doing any work whatsoever without an invoice, regardless of their origin (which in any case, is pretty irrelevant).
I live in the home countries and have had quite a lot of building work done (large and small) in the last 3 years. I have seen no evidence tradesmen are struggling. Of the tradesmen I called at least 50% never bothered to arrange to view. Of the 15 who did view the various work, only 1 Polish, 50% never even bothered to come up with estimates.ETA : Re-reading your original post, out of interest, who do you blame for 'cash-in-hand' jobs? I wouldn't accept anyone doing any work whatsoever without an invoice, regardless of their origin (which in any case, is pretty irrelevant).
As for tax evasion. This is best understood when you look at the money. Say I have invoice for £10k, £1.7 will have go to the Government as VAT, ignoring materials, lets say the builder is a higher rate tax payer so will pay about 45% as tax and he has one employee who is a basis rate tax payer so will have a tax rate of about 30%. So out of the remaining £8.3k, lets say we use an average tax rate of 37%, another £3k will go in tax.
Remember I am paying the bill out of taxed income also at 45%.
So out of my £10k bill, the Government will have collected (including my taxes) £12.7k.
The way to stop tax evasion is to reduce Government expenditures and reduce tax rates.
It's not about the nationality it's about ability knowledge and commitment to the common purpose. Be that common purpose an enterprise or government or just integrating and contributing to society.
One of my better colleagues was Romanian. She was and presumably still is brilliant. Along with a Kiwi, a German of Trinididadian descent, a Turkish guy, a Polish guy my own age, and an Indian Sikh, along with few English, Scottish, Swedish and a Spanish girl. All fantastic. There were some from each country and others who were dead weight or less effective. I'll pass over the ex security services Russian who was just corrupt. He just got slotted.
The point is to repeat not about nationality but ability and integrity. You can't control that if you inherently have no control nor mandate to introduce such controls / checks.
One of my better colleagues was Romanian. She was and presumably still is brilliant. Along with a Kiwi, a German of Trinididadian descent, a Turkish guy, a Polish guy my own age, and an Indian Sikh, along with few English, Scottish, Swedish and a Spanish girl. All fantastic. There were some from each country and others who were dead weight or less effective. I'll pass over the ex security services Russian who was just corrupt. He just got slotted.
The point is to repeat not about nationality but ability and integrity. You can't control that if you inherently have no control nor mandate to introduce such controls / checks.
otolith said:
JuniorD said:
Why are we cool about Germans, Australians, Irish, etc immigrants, but not particularly cool about Romanians?
Economic differences between {Germany, Australia, Ireland} and Romania.I'd say there are few of us here who couldn't better integrate into Germany, Australia, or Ireland as immigrants, than we could live the lives of the average Romanian. The reverse is fairly obviously true and whilst a good many immigrants from very difficult backgrounds can and do integrate very well, it does not logically follow that all can or the it is a good idea to allow unlimited numbers in into the UK or, for that matter, any other first world nation.
Rovinghawk said:
Speaking for the Romanians in my company:
They're paid exactly the same as the others, do the same work, live 'normally' (not 75 to one house) and pay tax. They get neither prejudice nor preference- they're valued purely according to the work they produce.
Where's the problem?
None, if they are typical of all. And therein lies the discussion.They're paid exactly the same as the others, do the same work, live 'normally' (not 75 to one house) and pay tax. They get neither prejudice nor preference- they're valued purely according to the work they produce.
Where's the problem?
Rovinghawk said:
Speaking for the Romanians in my company:
They're paid exactly the same as the others, do the same work, live 'normally' (not 75 to one house) and pay tax. They get neither prejudice nor preference- they're valued purely according to the work they produce.
Where's the problem?
I believe the concern of many, although I do not share the view, is that the workers you refer to didn't ask permission to work here. They were not vetted. If they were this would make people feel better even if it produced little practical benefit. They're paid exactly the same as the others, do the same work, live 'normally' (not 75 to one house) and pay tax. They get neither prejudice nor preference- they're valued purely according to the work they produce.
Where's the problem?
People associate a lack of vetting or 'controls' with harm being done to the country. Furthermore it is simply rude. A bit like walking into someone's house without knocking and waiting to be invited in.
The problem is social not economic - although there may be local issues with wage depression and the availability of services.
Digga said:
And colossal cultural differences.
I'd say there are few of us here who couldn't better integrate into Germany, Australia, or Ireland as immigrants, than we could live the lives of the average Romanian. The reverse is fairly obviously true and whilst a good many immigrants from very difficult backgrounds can and do integrate very well, it does not logically follow that all can or the it is a good idea to allow unlimited numbers in into the UK or, for that matter, any other first world nation.
Have you ever visited Romania? Have you ever even spoken to a Romanian?I'd say there are few of us here who couldn't better integrate into Germany, Australia, or Ireland as immigrants, than we could live the lives of the average Romanian. The reverse is fairly obviously true and whilst a good many immigrants from very difficult backgrounds can and do integrate very well, it does not logically follow that all can or the it is a good idea to allow unlimited numbers in into the UK or, for that matter, any other first world nation.
I expect no to both questions.
Can I suggest you do. Cheap flights are now available.
Mrr T said:
league67 said:
My English geography, even after all these years, is abysmal. I can't comment on situation in Home Counties, as I have no knowledge of the situation there. If anything, I'd assume that prices that trades command, based on my experience both here and in London, would be even higher, but obviously that assumption is wrong.
ETA : Re-reading your original post, out of interest, who do you blame for 'cash-in-hand' jobs? I wouldn't accept anyone doing any work whatsoever without an invoice, regardless of their origin (which in any case, is pretty irrelevant).
I live in the home countries and have had quite a lot of building work done (large and small) in the last 3 years. I have seen no evidence tradesmen are struggling. Of the tradesmen I called at least 50% never bothered to arrange to view. Of the 15 who did view the various work, only 1 Polish, 50% never even bothered to come up with estimates.ETA : Re-reading your original post, out of interest, who do you blame for 'cash-in-hand' jobs? I wouldn't accept anyone doing any work whatsoever without an invoice, regardless of their origin (which in any case, is pretty irrelevant).
As for tax evasion. This is best understood when you look at the money. Say I have invoice for £10k, £1.7 will have go to the Government as VAT, ignoring materials, lets say the builder is a higher rate tax payer so will pay about 45% as tax and he has one employee who is a basis rate tax payer so will have a tax rate of about 30%. So out of the remaining £8.3k, lets say we use an average tax rate of 37%, another £3k will go in tax.
Remember I am paying the bill out of taxed income also at 45%.
So out of my £10k bill, the Government will have collected (including my taxes) £12.7k.
The way to stop tax evasion is to reduce Government expenditures and reduce tax rates.
Mrr T said:
Digga said:
And colossal cultural differences.
I'd say there are few of us here who couldn't better integrate into Germany, Australia, or Ireland as immigrants, than we could live the lives of the average Romanian. The reverse is fairly obviously true and whilst a good many immigrants from very difficult backgrounds can and do integrate very well, it does not logically follow that all can or the it is a good idea to allow unlimited numbers in into the UK or, for that matter, any other first world nation.
Have you ever visited Romania? Have you ever even spoken to a Romanian?I'd say there are few of us here who couldn't better integrate into Germany, Australia, or Ireland as immigrants, than we could live the lives of the average Romanian. The reverse is fairly obviously true and whilst a good many immigrants from very difficult backgrounds can and do integrate very well, it does not logically follow that all can or the it is a good idea to allow unlimited numbers in into the UK or, for that matter, any other first world nation.
I expect no to both questions.
Can I suggest you do. Cheap flights are now available.
No to the second question. The answer to the above, plus a rudimentary understanding of GDP per nation and per capita is nonetheless informative.
I am sure the country has great potential, but suggesting I travel to any nation about which I have comment on immigration is an argument which is, frankly, null and void.
Do people think that it's better to employ people 'offshore'? That way, would-be-immigrants would still get the jobs done, wages would still be depressed, but they wouldn't pay any taxes, or spend any money whatsoever in the local economy here.
Edited by league67 on Wednesday 4th June 13:00
Digga said:
Yes to the first question, several of them. They were camped out on our industrial estate, filling the landscaping with bottles of piss and carrier bags full of veg peelings and human excrement, whilst waiting for backloads for their incredibly badly maintained artics. (This is not a lie.)
I believe you. I am sure we can all point to elements in our society we are not proud of. Personally I hope Romanians do not judge us on pictures of drunk and vomiting party goes in many British cities on a Friday and Saturday night.Digga said:
No to the second question. The answer to the above, plus a rudimentary understanding of GDP per nation and per capita is nonetheless informative.
I am sure the country has great potential, but suggesting I travel to any nation about which I have comment on immigration is an argument which is, frankly, null and void.
No one doubts Romanian GDP is lower than the UK. But the UK is lower that other countries. Does that mean we should not be allowed to emigrate to those countries. I am sure the country has great potential, but suggesting I travel to any nation about which I have comment on immigration is an argument which is, frankly, null and void.
I accept you do not need to visit a country to comment on immigration. However, you where saying it was harder to adapt to living in Romania than Germany, Australia, and Republic of Ireland. That assumption seems difficult to justify if you have never even visited Romania.
Mrr T said:
No one doubts Romanian GDP is lower than the UK. But the UK is lower that other countries. Does that mean we should not be allowed to emigrate to those countries.
It means those countries might be quite picky about which of us they will let in. The difference in per capita GDP is enormous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...
Mrr T said:
I accept you do not need to visit a country to comment on immigration. However, you where saying it was harder to adapt to living in Romania than Germany, Australia, and Republic of Ireland. That assumption seems difficult to justify if you have never even visited Romania.
Mainly based on this sort of analysis: http://www.inequalitywatch.eu/spip.php?article99Inequality watch said:
The highest rates, superior to 20 %, are observed in eastern Europe, in Romania and Bulgaria.
Digga said:
http://www.inequalitywatch.eu/spip.php?article99
Did I miss something? Did Spain at 20.7 and Greece at 20.1 move to Eastern Europe?Inequality watch said:
The highest rates, superior to 20 %, are observed in eastern Europe, in Romania and Bulgaria.
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