The truth about immigration

[CAPP0]

Mrr T said:

So you compare a drive from Gatwick to one in some unnamed part of Spain. Great evidence. I have driven in Madrid its murder.

However, despite the name, Gatwick is not in the middle of our capital city, therefore that's a nul comparison.

In response to later posts, I drive abroad regularly (from the UK) and returning to Folkestone is, in driving terms at least, always utterly depressing.

[GadgeS3C]

Digga said:

As he put it, it wasn't until he drove outside of the coutnry that he realised how bad things are. Here on PHcestershire, I am sure there are many of us who have made continental pilgrimages - Spa, the 'ring, Le Mans, etc. etc. - and had exactly the same sort of welcome home. I think it is disingenious to ignore the gist of dandarez' post.

Doesn't matter how many times I get off the ferry from France it's always unpleasant to drop into UK traffic madness.

[pcvdriver]

Mrr T said:

dandarez said:

Drove for nearly 2 hours while in Spain to get to the airport, no hold ups and free-moving traffic.
Landed at Gatwick in very early hours. What is immediately apparent on over 100 mile journey home are the volumes of traffic - hardly any different to the rush hour!
We are overcrowded. Simples.

So you compare a drive from Gatwick to one in some unnamed part of Spain. Great evidence. I have driven in Madrid its murder.

The confines of the M25 may well be vastly overcrowded, all due to successive incumbents at Westminster making mostly London -centric decisions on the country's behalf. Scotland has a falling population, and we cannot produce children quick enough to ccover the next generationa shortfall. This is only one of many reasons why many of us wish for the decision making process to be made in Scotland. We may even have room for some of oyu from Englandshire if you wwish to liveNorthofthe,border.

[HonestIago]

pcvdriver said:

The confines of the M25 may well be vastly overcrowded, all due to successive incumbents at Westminster making mostly London -centric decisions on the country's behalf. Scotland has a falling population, and we cannot produce children quick enough to ccover the next generationa shortfall. This is only one of many reasons why many of us wish for the decision making process to be made in Scotland. We may even have room for some of oyu from Englandshire if you wwish to liveNorthofthe,border.

We'd certainly rather a few more English than the wave of mass immigration Salmond has planned...

[Digga]

pcvdriver said:

The confines of the M25 may well be vastly overcrowded...

You will find that the symptoms of the simultaneous policies of allowing uncontrolled immigration and underinvesting in infrastructure are by no means restricted to the southeast.

[The Don of Croy]

'The truth about immigration' is very hard to come by. Not having watched the programme, but seeing his piece on last night's TV news (why was it a news item?) it still seems to want to illustrate selective parts of the debate; mainly EU or other european immigration.

In broad terms not many people object to a bit of immigration - bringing caring Phillipino nurses into our hospitals to offer some human compassion to the sick and elderly (as the graduate nurses are now too busy to sully themselves with 'old fashioned' methods), or the ever-present Polish plumber story. Lack of good ethnic eating in your area? No problem that can be sorted.

What is less easy to excuse is the undocumented problem that sometimes gets air time - the death of those cockle pickers or their countrymen in the container at Dover. All illegals. Those shanty towns in the gardens of Reading (and elsewhere) where more unnamed persons live many to a room, built without any regulations, for those outside the regulated society. Channel 4 recently aired a documentary on prostitution in London - following a Chinese girl (illegal) working for a Chinese madam (illegal) alongside three or four others (all illegals).

Like it or not we've 'received' a large number of people into this country, some legally and quite a few illegally, and it changes many areas from settled communities with common backgrounds into less welcoming 'ghettos' where UK laws are a moot point (although that is not always unique to incomers - the local ferals also operate this way). As for the economic benefits - more statistical games. No doubt a large low-wage workforce is a benefit to large corporations, but does little to help UK nationals get up the wage ladder (unless they wake up and improve their chances).

It's an unholy mess.

[Mrr T]

GadgeS3C said:

Doesn't matter how many times I get off the ferry from France it's always unpleasant to drop into UK traffic madness.

I agree most roads in the UK are very busy. However, is that more likely due to UK Governments not building the roads we need and to development which is centred on the SE rather than immigration. Perhaps a better plan would be to build some more roads and encourage business to move out from the SE.

[Galsia]

Mermaid said:

Will Nick Robinson's programme influence government policy?

Isn't baldy good friends with Cameron?

[pcvdriver]

Digga said:

pcvdriver said:

The confines of the M25 may well be vastly overcrowded...

You will find that the symptoms of the simultaneous policies of allowing uncontrolled immigration and underinvesting in infrastructure are by no means restricted to the southeast.

It is however more pronounced. The UK has a population of circa 60million and has a land mass of 243610 sq km. There are roughly 10 o 12 million (depending on which set of figures used) living wirhin the M25, which has an area of 1,583 sq km. So we have roughly a fifth of the population trying to fit themselves into what amounts to a fking postage stamp of land by comparison to the rest of the country. Tell me that's not a short sighted policy.

Edited by pcvdriver on Wednesday 8th January 14:16

[Digga]

mpire said:

That volume of traffic comes as a shock to us only experiencing it
sporadically and for brief periods . I suppose you must just get used to
it if it's part of your daily routine.

There is a commute here in the W Mids on M6/M5 that Digga snr used to do in the early/mid 70's at legal(ish) speeds in about 30 to 35 mins.

I have a mate who currently does a slightly shorter version of this and it usually takes him at least an hour and sometimes as much as three and a half when things go really wrong.

[Rich A]

SILICONEKID346HP said:

Did you know it costs £100 for a interpreter every time a non English speaker goes to the Doctors !

The weird thing is a lot of the EU countries do not offer this service ,so why us ?

Seems like a pretty good service to offer imho, provided the patient pays for it (directly or on travel insurance) if they require it. I cannot comprehend what the justification for the NHS footing this bill was.

[Mark Benson]

The Don of Croy said:

As for the economic benefits - more statistical games. No doubt a large low-wage workforce is a benefit to large corporations, but does little to help UK nationals get up the wage ladder (unless they wake up and improve their chances).

It's an unholy mess.

That's the point that Robinson completely failed to explore in an otherwise fairly reasonable (IMO) programme.

So we're told that immigration on the whole has benefitted Britain economically and that there will sadly, be some losers, that is inevitable (this was the conclusion drawn by the economist talking head chosen).

OK, so who exactly are these losers and who are the winners in this game of economics?

If the winners are large corporations able to offer zero-hour contracts to willing foreigners with no dependents, mortgages or stake in the UK, are the losers not the people competing against them and having to take lower workiing conditions in order to stay in work?
Are the winners wealthy Londoners who can now afford to hire a Lithuanian nanny instead of sending their child to nursery, or a Polish builder who lives in a rented room with 5 others and sends all his money home to his family - are the losers the childminders and builders who have to maintain a home and family in London?

Is GDP the holy grail? Personally I think not, but that's something that programmes like this never explore.

[pcvdriver]

Rich A said:

SILICONEKID346HP said:

Did you know it costs £100 for a interpreter every time a non English speaker goes to the Doctors !

The weird thing is a lot of the EU countries do not offer this service ,so why us ?

Seems like a pretty good service to offer imho, provided the patient pays for it (directly or on travel insurance) if they require it. I cannot comprehend what the justification for the NHS footing this bill was.

Surely a simple way for services not to be drained is by offering services as mentioned above. It could actually raise funds for the nhs. We can even stop health tourism by simply quoting our N.I. numbers when going for treatment. Anyone without a valid N.I. number and corresponding supplementary ID (driving licence) etc pays for their treatment.

[Mermaid]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03pj5cf

The UK seems to be the solution for illegal immigrants - adds to our problem.

[Digga]

Mermaid said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03pj5cf

The UK seems to be the solution for illegal immigrants - adds to our problem.

Some of the stuff we knew - the UK is a target because of the welfare system and also it's 'easy' because English is still the go-to second language in many countries.

I did not know, but was not entirely surprised, that border controls for people visiting on tourist visas only record imcoming visitors and not data on who leaves and when. So there is no way of policing or preventing this type of illegal immigration.

What is sad is the plight of those who become trapped here, because the truth about how easy (or, increasingly not) it is to get a work permit and/or welfare benefits and housing is not yet widely known in the places they're immigrating from.

In part, the bds who have mis-managaged the borders have a duty to help or re-patriate those who are in this trap. They won't be out of pocket for their mistakes though - it's all on taxpayers money of course.

[porridge]

Digga said:

I did not know, but was not entirely surprised, that border controls for people visiting on tourist visas only record imcoming visitors and not data on who leaves and when. So there is no way of policing or preventing this type of illegal immigration.

A lie if you ask me.

All passports are scanned at arrival and leaving so the data is in a database that is deliberately not being used. Since 9/11 the duration of this data storage is probably indefinite for anti-terrorism at GCHQ so a deliberate intention to not query this data.

[Digga]

porridge said:

A lie if you ask me.

Seemed odd to me too.

What is apparent from this programme (see 15 mins in) is how this is effectively 'bringing the third world' to parts of the country. The mess generated (see also the Sheffield Roma from the programme which inspired the OP) is blighting the country.

[greygoose]

porridge said:

Digga said:

I did not know, but was not entirely surprised, that border controls for people visiting on tourist visas only record imcoming visitors and not data on who leaves and when. So there is no way of policing or preventing this type of illegal immigration.

A lie if you ask me.

All passports are scanned at arrival and leaving so the data is in a database that is deliberately not being used. Since 9/11 the duration of this data storage is probably indefinite for anti-terrorism at GCHQ so a deliberate intention to not query this data.

That isn't true, passports for those leaving by ferry or Channel Tunnel are not scanned.

[porridge]

greygoose said:

That isn't true, passports for those leaving by ferry or Channel Tunnel are not scanned.

From memory, pretty sure on Eurostar UK & French Border controls ask for passport and scan? How else would we be looking for criminals on the run.

Besides it wouldn't take long to have access to EuroStar/Ferry systems either- assuming the government don't already get notifications of each booking.

[FiF]

Mrr T said:

GadgeS3C said:

Doesn't matter how many times I get off the ferry from France it's always unpleasant to drop into UK traffic madness.

I agree most roads in the UK are very busy. However, is that more likely due to UK Governments not building the roads we need and to development which is centred on the SE rather than immigration. Perhaps a better plan would be to build some more roads and encourage business to move out from the SE.

Yes it is due to successive Governments of every coloured tie not building or fiddling around while the transport infrastructure burns.

Setting aside the issue that there is a permanent conflict between the concept of public transport should be increased to meet predicted demand whereas private transport can go to hell look at what happens when they try to do something about it.

Points at proposal for lower speed limits on M1.

A part of the justification for this has been a study of poor health amongst residents of East Sheffield. You saw some of them on Robinson's programme. It's the fault of the motorway pollution apparently.

Sorry for the off topic bit.

Just for reference on topic it's not just UK. Romania shanty towns around Stockholm and I mean proper scrap wood and tarpaulin "dwellings".