The truth about immigration
Discussion
porridge said:
greygoose said:
That isn't true, passports for those leaving by ferry or Channel Tunnel are not scanned.
From memory, pretty sure on Eurostar Border controls ask for passport and scan? How else would we be looking for criminals on the run.
Digga said:
What is apparent from this programme (see 15 mins in) is how this is effectively 'bringing the third world' to parts of the country. The mess generated (see also the Sheffield Roma from the programme which inspired the OP) is blighting the country.
Race to the bottom, just because we are tolerant/generous/fair/charitable. There is a likelihood of the pendulum swinging the other way if the population think this is out of control, and that would be a pity.http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03pj5cf/The_...
There are no outbound controls on passengers leaving the UK. The checks done at the Eurostar stations are done by the French Border Police, the PAF. They are called juxtaposed controls and the UK Border Force have them in France and Belgium. The idea was to stop undesirables entering the UK from where it would be more difficult to remove them. If you stop them in France or Belgium it will prevent them getting into the UK. We have a reciprocal agreement with the French and they have controls in this country to stop anybody they deem as undesisrable entering their country. The only time you may have passport checks going out is as someone has mentioned, the Police were looking for somebody either as a terrorist, wanted fugitive or a child being taken out of the country by a parent against a court's ruling.
As we know since the Border Service do not track exit so we are guessing how many over stay tourist visas. What everyone should be aware of is that getting a tourist visa is not an easy matter. Not only are you expected to visit the visa office, but you need evidence, of means to support yourself during your trip, and that you have reasons to return to your home. This will mean providing original bank statements showing sufficient funds, work cards or letters from employers confirming your employment and salary. the salary must be sufficient to justify any savings, or you must have other explanations as to why you have any saving, and to be likely that you would be expected to return. Even then the embassy has every right to refuse with no right of appeal. I am sure some who visit the UK on tourist visa stay on but the process to get the visa will minimise this.
Mrr T said:
As we know since the Border Service do not track exit so we are guessing how many over stay tourist visas. What everyone should be aware of is that getting a tourist visa is not an easy matter. Not only are you expected to visit the visa office, but you need evidence, of means to support yourself during your trip, and that you have reasons to return to your home. This will mean providing original bank statements showing sufficient funds, work cards or letters from employers confirming your employment and salary. the salary must be sufficient to justify any savings, or you must have other explanations as to why you have any saving, and to be likely that you would be expected to return. Even then the embassy has every right to refuse with no right of appeal. I am sure some who visit the UK on tourist visa stay on but the process to get the visa will minimise this.
Many Migrants take out a loan back home to fund the trip and the initial cost- this cash is what the Tourist Visa will see and be allowed on. Letters proving things are very easily faked.Digga said:
hollydog said:
Must be great feeling for the immigrant's home country governments. They get a tofo deal. Get rid of there unemployed and get a influx of money coming into the country that they send back home. Win Win.
Everyone must (rightly) think we are muppets.For a start, why do you assume that it is only their unemployed who come over? I would say my office is at least 20% immigrant. Sitting within a few feet of me now are twp quantity surveyors, a civil engineer, a slew of project managers and a few other skill sets. Some have been here for many years, some camewhen they were kids and some are more recent. None of those of working age before they left their home country were not working. That is only my observation but I rather like proof and I would love to see some backing up the concept the unemplyed make up a large number of those coming in here - excluding students.
Regardless of why we have an aging population, fact is that we do. Without immigration how is this going to be funded?
While I am not wild on the NHS paying translators, it is needed. If someone cannot speak English and needs medical assistance, then what are they or we to do? Simply ignore someone who is unwell? Get them to learn English before they get ill? We can easily do as Israel does and require people to learn the language but there is always gooing to be a time lag or people who dont know the correct terms for a medical issue. Better the country pays a few quid to know whats wrong than letting them die on the streets - that is a country I would not want to live in.
Truth is, we can debate this as much as people want but unless we pull out of Europe we have to allow EU citizens in, as we are allowed into their home lands.
As a final thought, I would say over 80% of my social circle are no more than third generation, many are first or second. There tax pounds go a very long way! Every generation moans about this yet England would not exist if it was not for immigration, at least not with its amazing history and world beating successes.
But hey, lets focus on a traffic jam as imperical proof.
To simply say stop 'em coming will create massive issues with Europe, with us funding our own retirements etc and if people find it hard to compete with immigrants, maybe they should lift their game a bit, which can only be a good thing.
There is a simple reason why so many who are against immigration use annecdotal responses to proove their views - because the actual data, such as it is, does not back it up nor does at least 1000 years of UK immigration.
Pappa Lurve said:
Regardless of why we have an aging population, fact is that we do. Without immigration how is this going to be funded?
Possible solutions, pick one1) Leave border open and allow in people who will get old here, then bring in more people to pay for them who will also get old, then bring in more people to pay for them who will get old.... and so on
2) Bring in people on time specific permits related to skills/labour shortages. Set sensible criteria for permanent stay.
porridge said:
Pappa Lurve said:
Regardless of why we have an aging population, fact is that we do. Without immigration how is this going to be funded?
Possible solutions, pick one1) Leave border open and allow in people who will get old here, then bring in more people to pay for them who will also get old, then bring in more people to pay for them who will get old.... and so on
2) Bring in people on time specific permits related to skills/labour shortages. Set sensible criteria for permanent stay.
your option 2 is what policy is external to Europe but not allowing for those with Asylum or refugee status.
Pappa Lurve said:
I find all this very odd!
For a start, why do you assume that it is only their unemployed who come over? I would say my office is at least 20% immigrant. Sitting within a few feet of me now are twp quantity surveyors, a civil engineer, a slew of project managers and a few other skill sets. Some have been here for many years, some camewhen they were kids and some are more recent. None of those of working age before they left their home country were not working. That is only my observation but I rather like proof and I would love to see some backing up the concept the unemplyed make up a large number of those coming in here - excluding students.
You are in an office not on a building site, car wash, factory,cleaning company, farm etc HTHFor a start, why do you assume that it is only their unemployed who come over? I would say my office is at least 20% immigrant. Sitting within a few feet of me now are twp quantity surveyors, a civil engineer, a slew of project managers and a few other skill sets. Some have been here for many years, some camewhen they were kids and some are more recent. None of those of working age before they left their home country were not working. That is only my observation but I rather like proof and I would love to see some backing up the concept the unemplyed make up a large number of those coming in here - excluding students.
Pappa Lurve said:
but there is always gooing to be a time lag or people who dont know the correct terms for a medical issue. Better the country pays a few quid to know whats wrong than letting them die on the streets - that is a country I would not want to live in.
Don't be clever,it is not medical terms, it is the english language to describe the symptoms. The UK is in the position where people are queuing up form across the world to enter, making a minimum standard of English mandatory would not affect out immigration needs.Pappa Lurve said:
But hey, lets focus on a traffic jam as imperical proof.
To simply say stop 'em coming will create massive issues with Europe, with us funding our own retirements etc and if people find it hard to compete with immigrants, maybe they should lift their game a bit, which can only be a good thing.
There is a simple reason why so many who are against immigration use annecdotal responses to proove their views - because the actual data, such as it is, does not back it up nor does at least 1000 years of UK immigration.
See latest Oxford University study, conclusion is that any 'slight' benefits of this latest migration will be cancelled out as they get old and become a burden.To simply say stop 'em coming will create massive issues with Europe, with us funding our own retirements etc and if people find it hard to compete with immigrants, maybe they should lift their game a bit, which can only be a good thing.
There is a simple reason why so many who are against immigration use annecdotal responses to proove their views - because the actual data, such as it is, does not back it up nor does at least 1000 years of UK immigration.
porridge said:
Pappa Lurve said:
Regardless of why we have an aging population, fact is that we do. Without immigration how is this going to be funded?
Possible solutions, pick one1) Leave border open and allow in people who will get old here, then bring in more people to pay for them who will also get old, then bring in more people to pay for them who will get old.... and so on
2) Bring in people on time specific permits related to skills/labour shortages. Set sensible criteria for permanent stay.
Pappa Lurve said:
porridge said:
Pappa Lurve said:
Regardless of why we have an aging population, fact is that we do. Without immigration how is this going to be funded?
Possible solutions, pick one1) Leave border open and allow in people who will get old here, then bring in more people to pay for them who will also get old, then bring in more people to pay for them who will get old.... and so on
2) Bring in people on time specific permits related to skills/labour shortages. Set sensible criteria for permanent stay.
your option 2 is what policy is external to Europe but not allowing for those with Asylum or refugee status.
Previously years Fruit was picked by Romanian workers who came on a seasonal basis permit. They returned home happy with made what was for them a lot of cash, and we had a problem solved at a minimum wage cost.
It was a win-win solution.
And those Asylum and refugees travel through dozens of safe countries and refuse to apply for asylum until they get to the UK, hence most are not in fear of their lives but in-fact economic migrants.
Pappa Lurve said:
PS - I am not saying we have a great system, or even a good one, but I am of the view that immigration is used as a catch all argument. I also note you choose not to mention any of my other points, including as is always the case when this subject crops up, some actual evidence and not just a mention of how wrong it is to hear lots of foreign people in a coffee shop (which I don;t think was your comment BTW Porridge, just meant it as a general observation!).
trust you have seem the one above yours? which includes factual reference. Go read the Oxford study.porridge said:
Pappa Lurve said:
PS - I am not saying we have a great system, or even a good one, but I am of the view that immigration is used as a catch all argument. I also note you choose not to mention any of my other points, including as is always the case when this subject crops up, some actual evidence and not just a mention of how wrong it is to hear lots of foreign people in a coffee shop (which I don;t think was your comment BTW Porridge, just meant it as a general observation!).
trust you have seem the one above yours? which includes factual reference. Go read the Oxford study.Pappa Lurve said:
You had not posted them, or at least they had not shown up yet, hence my comment, but clearly unfair as you were presumably posting them as I was writting it. I'll read your posts now.
It was discussed at great length prior on PHOxford bods said said:
For the UK (and most other countries), the majority of studies conclude that the overall net fiscal impact of immigration is positive but small. However, results are subject to key assumptions
Conclusion said:
Immigration may, in the short term, help decrease the dependency ratio – the ratio of those not in the labour force (the dependent group) and those in the labour force. However, this effect is likely to diminish over time as migrants who stay in the UK will become older and retire.]
Oxford bods cover their backs with said:
The existing estimates of the fiscal impact of immigration in the UK are few and limited because of a lack of data and accurate information about a wide range of important factors. For this and other reasons, a significant number of assumptions must be made in order to estimate the fiscal effects of immigration, and results tend to change based on these assumptions.
Link below; there is no proof the current type and levels of migration is good for the UKhttp://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fis...
Edited by porridge on Thursday 9th January 14:42
porridge said:
Pappa Lurve said:
I find all this very odd!
For a start, why do you assume that it is only their unemployed who come over? I would say my office is at least 20% immigrant. Sitting within a few feet of me now are twp quantity surveyors, a civil engineer, a slew of project managers and a few other skill sets. Some have been here for many years, some camewhen they were kids and some are more recent. None of those of working age before they left their home country were not working. That is only my observation but I rather like proof and I would love to see some backing up the concept the unemplyed make up a large number of those coming in here - excluding students.
You are in an office not on a building site, car wash, factory,cleaning company, farm etc HTHFor a start, why do you assume that it is only their unemployed who come over? I would say my office is at least 20% immigrant. Sitting within a few feet of me now are twp quantity surveyors, a civil engineer, a slew of project managers and a few other skill sets. Some have been here for many years, some camewhen they were kids and some are more recent. None of those of working age before they left their home country were not working. That is only my observation but I rather like proof and I would love to see some backing up the concept the unemplyed make up a large number of those coming in here - excluding students.
Pappa Lurve said:
but there is always gooing to be a time lag or people who dont know the correct terms for a medical issue. Better the country pays a few quid to know whats wrong than letting them die on the streets - that is a country I would not want to live in.
Don't be clever,it is not medical terms, it is the english language to describe the symptoms. The UK is in the position where people are queuing up form across the world to enter, making a minimum standard of English mandatory would not affect out immigration needs.Pappa Lurve said:
But hey, lets focus on a traffic jam as imperical proof.
To simply say stop 'em coming will create massive issues with Europe, with us funding our own retirements etc and if people find it hard to compete with immigrants, maybe they should lift their game a bit, which can only be a good thing.
There is a simple reason why so many who are against immigration use annecdotal responses to proove their views - because the actual data, such as it is, does not back it up nor does at least 1000 years of UK immigration.
See latest Oxford University study, conclusion is that any 'slight' benefits of this latest migration will be cancelled out as they get old and become a burden.To simply say stop 'em coming will create massive issues with Europe, with us funding our own retirements etc and if people find it hard to compete with immigrants, maybe they should lift their game a bit, which can only be a good thing.
There is a simple reason why so many who are against immigration use annecdotal responses to proove their views - because the actual data, such as it is, does not back it up nor does at least 1000 years of UK immigration.
And your proof all these people in car wasjes etc where unemployed before they came here is what?
Link to the Oxford study please. I would like to read it for myself before I could possibly comment on it, its contents etc.
My point about medical issues stands - I am sorry you seem to find my point to be clever and somehow that is a negative thing. I take clever to be a compliment, as do most people, so I thank you for your kind, and true, obserbation of my mental skills.
Finally - you are agaionst something which has gone on for at least a thousand years becuase you dont have data on it?! OK then.... we don't have data for a thousand years on all sorts of stuff that we all accept are jolly good. My point is that is you want an end to immigration, you need to leave the EU and to do something that extreme needs in my view a solid argument, of which I have yet to see one which is not based on just another scary headline.
Pappa Lurve said:
As a final thought, I would say over 80% of my social circle are no more than third generation, many are first or second. There tax pounds go a very long way! Every generation moans about this yet England would not exist if it was not for immigration, at least not with its amazing history and world beating successes.
Recent surveys suggest (I agree there are lies, damn lies and statistics) that around three quarters of all first and second generation immigrants want tighter contrls to immigration.My only social contact is with immigrants (1st, but mostly 2nd gen) who have arrived here wanting to be British, but it would seem that many of them share similar concerns. To put it in basic terms; people want to come to live here because it's generally a nice place to live and they don't want that spoilled by those who aren't going to be a part of that or who - for various reasons - may be detrimental to it.
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