Minimum Wage,£7 an hour

[JensenA]

RYH64E said:

There appears to be a misconception about the costs of agency staff, in my experience the cheapest agency staff will cost about £9.50 per hour. The agency will pay minimum wage, employers NI, holiday pay and pension, on top of that they will want to make a profit. The benefit to a company is flexibility, not cost.

If minimum wage goes up to £8 per hour agency rates will go up to £13ish per hour, the costs will be passed on. Not necessarily a bad thing imo.

Edited by RYH64E on Sunday 21st September 11:12

I work through an agency, the agencies I work through - and they have literally thousands working through them - do NOT pay employers NI, or holiday pay, or pension. We all HAVE to go through an umbrella company, the umbrella company charge about £25 a week 'admin costs', on top of that we also pays the Employers NI AND the employees NI.

By law we are entitled - after 12 weeks - to holiday pay and paid public holidays. We do NOT get that, they are breaking the law pure and simple, but there is nothing anyone can do. If you complain you lose your job. Even though technically I am employed by the Umbrella company, it is the agency who hires and fires. Forced to work 12 hour days, don't get paid for any breaks, it is just awful, but nothing you can do about it.

In the UK lower paid workers are treated with no respect, they are imply a resource, hence the name of the old Personell Department is now Human Resources. Bosses will try to obtain that resource as cheaply as possible.

You know one of the big differences between Bosses in the UK and Bosses in Germany? In the UK Bosses will pay the least they can get away with, in Germany Bosses will pay the maximum they can afford.

[mph1977]

JensenA said:

I work through an agency, the agencies I work through - and they have literally thousands working through them - do NOT pay employers NI, or holiday pay, or pension. We all HAVE to go through an umbrella company, the umbrella company charge about £25 a week 'admin costs', on top of that we also pays the Employers NI AND the employees NI.

By law we are entitled - after 12 weeks - to holiday pay and paid public holidays. We do NOT get that, they are breaking the law pure and simple, but there is nothing anyone can do. If you complain you lose your job. Even though technically I am employed by the Umbrella company, it is the agency who hires and fires. Forced to work 12 hour days, don't get paid for any breaks, it is just awful, but nothing you can do about it.
In the UK lower paid workers are treated with no respect, they are imply a resource, hence the name of the old Personell Department is now Human Resources. Bosses will try to obtain that resource as cheaply as possible.

You know one of the big differences between Bosses in the UK and Bosses in Germany? In the UK Bosses will pay the least they can get away with, in Germany Bosses will pay the maximum they can afford.

are you actually a agency worker or a wky 'contractor' ... ?

as this does not represent my experience of agency work in both unskilled/ semi skilled settings and professional settings

[JensenA]

mph1977 said:

JensenA said:

I work through an agency, the agencies I work through - and they have literally thousands working through them - do NOT pay employers NI, or holiday pay, or pension. We all HAVE to go through an umbrella company, the umbrella company charge about £25 a week 'admin costs', on top of that we also pays the Employers NI AND the employees NI.

By law we are entitled - after 12 weeks - to holiday pay and paid public holidays. We do NOT get that, they are breaking the law pure and simple, but there is nothing anyone can do. If you complain you lose your job. Even though technically I am employed by the Umbrella company, it is the agency who hires and fires. Forced to work 12 hour days, don't get paid for any breaks, it is just awful, but nothing you can do about it.
In the UK lower paid workers are treated with no respect, they are imply a resource, hence the name of the old Personell Department is now Human Resources. Bosses will try to obtain that resource as cheaply as possible.

You know one of the big differences between Bosses in the UK and Bosses in Germany? In the UK Bosses will pay the least they can get away with, in Germany Bosses will pay the maximum they can afford.

are you actually a agency worker or a wky 'contractor' ... ?

as this does not represent my experience of agency work in both unskilled/ semi skilled settings and professional settings

Why are contractors 'wky'?

I don't think I could have made the picture any clearer, what I stated is exactly what happens, you must be out of touch with reality. Some agencies do obey the Law, and pay Holiday pay etc etc, but the majority do not.


To obtain the Job you apply to the agency, NOT the Company where you end up working at their premises. The agency gives you the job, and you HAVE to go through an umbrella company.

The company I work for, let me rephrase that, the place that I work at is owned by a company - and that company provides a service to some of to some leading car manufacturers who import cars to the UK - including BMW, Mercedes, Vauxhall, VW, Audi. The Agency Workers Regulation Act 2010 is flouted easily and with impunity.

[mph1977]

JensenA said:

Why are contractors 'wky'?

I don't think I could have made the picture any clearer, what I stated is exactly what happens, you must be out of touch with reality. Some agencies do obey the Law, and pay Holiday pay etc etc, but the majority do not.


To obtain the Job you apply to the agency, NOT the Company where you end up working at their premises. The agency gives you the job, and you HAVE to go through an umbrella company.

The company I work for, let me rephrase that, the place that I work at is owned by a company - and that company provides a service to some of to some leading car manufacturers who import cars to the UK - including BMW, Mercedes, Vauxhall, VW, Audi. The Agency Workers Regulation Act 2010 is flouted easily and with impunity.

thought as much ...

a lot of employment law is floutted when it comes to 'professional' staff, in part because of the attitude that permanent staff on salaries are paid based on results not attendance ( unless they can provide the results in less than 9 to 5 when the jealous or less organised attempt to pile extra work on that person ) .

have to go through THE umbrella company ? or through an Umbrella co / youre own Ltd co ? also i guess the jobs are put out via several agencies rather than one or two preferred providers ?

oddly enough the rise of the umbrella co is because of the amount of piss taking by wky contractors not paying their NI and tax and then using the grey areas in the law to sugget that they were in fact employees and recieving a net salary ... the umbrella co requirment means the 'employer' can pay gross and not have to worry about any HMRC backlash

[Negative Creep]

I still don't think it would be high enough. I did a bit of an experiment recently on trying to rent a house with the current minimum wage (which we'll call £1000 a month after tax), single male with no children.


Rent £500 a month
Council tax £80
Bills £100
Petrol and insurance £100
Food £60
Mobile and internet £50

=£890



Housing Benefit - £0
Council Tax Assistance - £0
Income Support - £0
Tax Credits 80p a month


so that leaves £110 a month for a social life, car repairs, clothes etc. Is it any wonder people just stay at home and pop out a few kids?

[RYH64E]

Negative Creep said:

I still don't think it would be high enough. I did a bit of an experiment recently on trying to rent a house with the current minimum wage (which we'll call £1000 a month after tax), single male with no children.


Rent £500 a month
Council tax £80
Bills £100
Petrol and insurance £100
Food £60
Mobile and internet £50

=£890



Housing Benefit - £0
Council Tax Assistance - £0
Income Support - £0
Tax Credits 80p a month


so that leaves £110 a month for a social life, car repairs, clothes etc. Is it any wonder people just stay at home and pop out a few kids?

That looks do-able to me, minimum wage is just that, a minimum. In your example the single person could live in a shared house (as I did for most of my single life) until such time as he progressed past minimum, or moved in with a partner. There are compromises to be made, but that's life.

[Grandfondo]

RYH64E said:

Negative Creep said:

I still don't think it would be high enough. I did a bit of an experiment recently on trying to rent a house with the current minimum wage (which we'll call £1000 a month after tax), single male with no children.


Rent £500 a month
Council tax £80
Bills £100
Petrol and insurance £100
Food £60
Mobile and internet £50

=£890

Housing Benefit - £0
Council Tax Assistance - £0
Income Support - £0
Tax Credits 80p a month

so that leaves £110 a month for a social life, car repairs, clothes etc. Is it any wonder people just stay at home and pop out a few kids?

That looks do-able to me, minimum wage is just that, a minimum. In your example the single person could live in a shared house (as I did for most of my single life) until such time as he progressed past minimum, or moved in with a partner. There are compromises to be made, but that's life.

Council rent would be half that for a flat.

[Negative Creep]

Grandfondo said:

RYH64E said:

Negative Creep said:

I still don't think it would be high enough. I did a bit of an experiment recently on trying to rent a house with the current minimum wage (which we'll call £1000 a month after tax), single male with no children.


Rent £500 a month
Council tax £80
Bills £100
Petrol and insurance £100
Food £60
Mobile and internet £50

=£890

Housing Benefit - £0
Council Tax Assistance - £0
Income Support - £0
Tax Credits 80p a month

so that leaves £110 a month for a social life, car repairs, clothes etc. Is it any wonder people just stay at home and pop out a few kids?

That looks do-able to me, minimum wage is just that, a minimum. In your example the single person could live in a shared house (as I did for most of my single life) until such time as he progressed past minimum, or moved in with a partner. There are compromises to be made, but that's life.

Council rent would be half that for a flat.

Only if you can get one in the first place, and being a single male the chances of that are pretty low. Problem is that minimum wage is a good idea in theory, but very quickly became the default wage that people get stuck on and doesn't allow any quality of life, especially with the recent budget cuts meaning you now get no state assistance.

I also tried it for someone who was unemployed, and it came up around £140 a week in benefits plus the £75 JSA. Or in other words, about £40 a week less than going out and working full time

Edited by Negative Creep on Sunday 21st September 15:09

[JensenA]

mph1977 said:

JensenA said:

Why are contractors 'wky'?

I don't think I could have made the picture any clearer, what I stated is exactly what happens, you must be out of touch with reality. Some agencies do obey the Law, and pay Holiday pay etc etc, but the majority do not.


To obtain the Job you apply to the agency, NOT the Company where you end up working at their premises. The agency gives you the job, and you HAVE to go through an umbrella company.

The company I work for, let me rephrase that, the place that I work at is owned by a company - and that company provides a service to some of to some leading car manufacturers who import cars to the UK - including BMW, Mercedes, Vauxhall, VW, Audi. The Agency Workers Regulation Act 2010 is flouted easily and with impunity.

thought as much ...

a lot of employment law is floutted when it comes to 'professional' staff, in part because of the attitude that permanent staff on salaries are paid based on results not attendance ( unless they can provide the results in less than 9 to 5 when the jealous or less organised attempt to pile extra work on that person ) .

have to go through THE umbrella company ? or through an Umbrella co / youre own Ltd co ? also i guess the jobs are put out via several agencies rather than one or two preferred providers ?

oddly enough the rise of the umbrella co is because of the amount of piss taking by wky contractors not paying their NI and tax and then using the grey areas in the law to sugget that they were in fact employees and recieving a net salary ... the umbrella co requirment means the 'employer' can pay gross and not have to worry about any HMRC backlash

It depends how you define professional. I'm talking about the Automotive trade, drivers, valeters, vehicle prepares, pain sprayers etc etc.

There is only ONE agency, you have to go through that agency. There are 2 umbrella companies we can choose, but guess what. They both have the same address, it's the same company in effect.
Some of us have formed Ltd companies, but you invoice the agency, not the Company you work at. And it's exactly the same rate of pay,
It's all a big tax fiddle, and the only ones benefitting are the 'agency' who are making at least, and I mean at least, £100 per employee per week. No one has had a pay rise for 4 years. This is 21st century Dickensian Britain.

[mph1977]

JensenA said:

It depends how you define professional. I'm talking about the Automotive trade, drivers, valeters, vehicle prepares, pain sprayers etc etc.

There is only ONE agency, you have to go through that agency. There are 2 umbrella companies we can choose, but guess what. They both have the same address, it's the same company in effect.
Some of us have formed Ltd companies, but you invoice the agency, not the Company you work at. And it's exactly the same rate of pay,
It's all a big tax fiddle, and the only ones benefitting are the 'agency' who are making at least, and I mean at least, £100 per employee per week. No one has had a pay rise for 4 years. This is 21st century Dickensian Britain.

they get away with it because people want to do those jobs ...

same as the wky meeja types get away with 3 to 6 month 'internships' - 3 weeks 'internship' in a household name high st store is 'affront to dignity ' and 'slave labour' organised by the 'nasty tories' through the murderers of the DWP but 3 months 'internship' in a law firm or some wky meeja company has graduates frothing ...

[BlackLabel]

It's interesting to note that since 2006 there have only ever been 9 prosecutions for breach of the national minimum wage.

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/national_minimum_w...

I find that very surprising - either we have a record level of compliance from businesses for this particular law/regulation or the authorities are just turning a blind eye and are unwilling to enforce it.

So cash only businesses or those who deliberately have poor record keeping can do as they please.

Edited by BlackLabel on Sunday 21st September 16:37

[mph1977]

BlackLabel said:

It's interesting to note that since 2006 there have only ever been 9 prosecutions for breach of the national minimum wage.

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/national_minimum_w...

I find that very surprising - either we have a record level of compliance from businesses for this particular law/regulation or the authorities are just turning a blind eye and are unwilling to enforce it.

So cash only businesses or those who deliberately have poor record keeping can do as they please.

Edited by BlackLabel on Sunday 21st September 16:37

or thew lack of presecutions reflects those who get caught out paying up out of fear that they will be subject to a rotating set of visits from the DWP, HMRC , UKBA, Environmental health etc ... the al capone approach ...

[jonah35]

RYH64E said:

Negative Creep said:

I still don't think it would be high enough. I did a bit of an experiment recently on trying to rent a house with the current minimum wage (which we'll call £1000 a month after tax), single male with no children.


Rent £500 a month
Council tax £80
Bills £100
Petrol and insurance £100
Food £60
Mobile and internet £50

=£890



Housing Benefit - £0
Council Tax Assistance - £0
Income Support - £0
Tax Credits 80p a month


so that leaves £110 a month for a social life, car repairs, clothes etc. Is it any wonder people just stay at home and pop out a few kids?

That looks do-able to me, minimum wage is just that, a minimum. In your example the single person could live in a shared house (as I did for most of my single life) until such time as he progressed past minimum, or moved in with a partner. There are compromises to be made, but that's life.

Live with a friend or partner and save £340pm on bills. But, rent somewhere for £350pm and save more. No need for a car. No need for mobile and internet. Do some evening work and/or work more hours.

Easily doable.

But, no one wants to do it.

[Negative Creep]

jonah35 said:

Live with a friend or partner and save £340pm on bills. But, rent somewhere for £350pm and save more. No need for a car. No need for mobile and internet. Do some evening work and/or work more hours.

Easily doable.

But, no one wants to do it.

Not everyone has a friend or partner to live with

Very few places available for £350pcm that aren't in the middle of a the worst parts of town

Car is essential for many people to get around or commute

Internet is a necessity in today's world

Many companies don't offer overtime and finding a part time job to fit around your current one may not be so easy


ETA - I also think that any suggesting of just bettering yourself, working harder and getting a better job misses the point somewhat. No matter how many academics or graduates we produce, we will always need a large number of people to work in supermarkets, bars, call centres etc and currently these people are being paid at such a level where they must be supported by the state. If we want to reduce the number of long term unemployed surely we need to make working full time financially worthwhile?

Edited by Negative Creep on Sunday 21st September 20:03

[JensenA]

mph1977 said:

JensenA said:

It depends how you define professional. I'm talking about the Automotive trade, drivers, valeters, vehicle prepares, pain sprayers etc etc.

There is only ONE agency, you have to go through that agency. There are 2 umbrella companies we can choose, but guess what. They both have the same address, it's the same company in effect.
Some of us have formed Ltd companies, but you invoice the agency, not the Company you work at. And it's exactly the same rate of pay,
It's all a big tax fiddle, and the only ones benefitting are the 'agency' who are making at least, and I mean at least, £100 per employee per week. No one has had a pay rise for 4 years. This is 21st century Dickensian Britain.

they get away with it because people want to do those jobs ...

same as the wky meeja types get away with 3 to 6 month 'internships' - 3 weeks 'internship' in a household name high st store is 'affront to dignity ' and 'slave labour' organised by the 'nasty tories' through the murderers of the DWP but 3 months 'internship' in a law firm or some wky meeja company has graduates frothing ...

The Agency companies are breaking the law, period. Yes people do the jobs because jobs are hard to come by, and it is better than the dole. But this is supposed to be 21st century Britain, not Dickensian Britain. Treat workers with respect and they respect you, and will work harder for you.
The problem we have in the UK is that we do everything as cheaply as we can. The Germans do things the best way they can, that is why we want BMW's and Mercs, it's why Tradesman will pay extra for Bosch tools, and house owners pay more for a Siemens cooker.

And PS, I'm not a left wing rampant socialist, My family think I'm somewhere to the right of Ghenhis Kahn. :-)

[Stevanos]

Could we just draw a line in thread if possible?

The basics of this, for anyone who is economically literate is that it would in fact cause a lot more harm for our youth employment problem than the current situation, if anything we should lower the wage for under 21's to get them on the ladder.

It is utterly amazing that Milliband can be saying Cameron is playing "party politics" just after the Scottish independence vote and yet be pushing this badly thought out idea out.

Please, I hate to say this, but... consideration must be given to more of the coalition running our country, they have done pretty well so far!!

[rover 623gsi]

you mean we should make the current NMW for under-21s even less than the £5.03 per hour that it is currently?

[Negative Creep]

Stevanos said:

Could we just draw a line in thread if possible?

The basics of this, for anyone who is economically literate is that it would in fact cause a lot more harm for our youth employment problem than the current situation, if anything we should lower the wage for under 21's to get them on the ladder.

It is utterly amazing that Milliband can be saying Cameron is playing "party politics" just after the Scottish independence vote and yet be pushing this badly thought out idea out.

Please, I hate to say this, but... consideration must be given to more of the coalition running our country, they have done pretty well so far!!

What about those under 21's who are never going to have the qualifications or skills to climb the ladder? Someone has to be at the bottom

[Vaud]

Negative Creep said:

Internet is a necessity in today's world

Not at £50 a month it isn't. Cheap phone with a PAYG 3G plan or basic broadband. Doesn't cost £50.

[Negative Creep]

Vaud said:

Negative Creep said:

Internet is a necessity in today's world

Not at £50 a month it isn't. Cheap phone with a PAYG 3G plan or basic broadband. Doesn't cost £50.

You still need line rental and a land line to get broadband. I pay about £30 for Plusnet landline and unlimited broadband (no TV) and a £15 SIM only contract which is pretty much the cheapest way to go about it