Hero to Zero (Mo Farah content)?

[85Carrera]

JuniorD said:

Mo can hold his head high; transforming from a perennial also-ran to a world beater in multiple disciplines CLEAN in a doped up sport, with a doper coach and a doped training partner. Fortitude like that is why we made him a Sir!!

Indeed. Fair play to him. Can’t understand how anyone could possibly doubt him ...

[popeyewhite]

Derek Smith said:

Say something nasty about the above woman and drugs abuse and you will be sued. There is, after all, no evidence against her. So be general and not specific.

I think she died quite some time ago. Has to be said that if someone suddenly knocks half a second off their previous best and gets a WR at the same time then the finger of suspicion is only going to point one way... .

[Halb]

I think it goes hand in hand with some personality types. The need to excel and be the best to put in those 10,000 hours is linked to taking the best practise...which means PEDs...from caffeine to creatine to the hormonal stuff. The extras would make you win, but they will level you up, if you're a natural demo-god then you'll be a levelled up God. and so on. You still need that iron will, turn it into a steel will.

The rugby player is interesting. I've been 100% natural (in my terms, I take creatine and cafiene and stuff you can buy over the counter in a health food shop, never juiced) but people have accused/asked me over the years if I'm 'on stuff'. Because I know how to train and packed on power/size when I wanted to. Most people in a gym don't, they don't have that intensity. But then I was never a professional athlete, my career path diverged when that was on the cards...swings and roundabouts, a bit sad that I never utilised my genetic 'gifts' (and personality type...also genetic?) to do something to a high level, but now I've always been 100% clean and so I have zero worries on the kind of conditions that haunt ex-athletes from wrestlers to that genetic heart condition that AhNold had a few years ago...

[Ladders]

Randy Winkman said:

I'm sure she was really good anyway. Likewise, I think Lance Armstrong was a really gifted athlete and an exceptionally strong personality who was born to be a team leader. Albeit of the dishonest/cheating type.

Lance Armstrong was a mediocre rider when he moved to the continent. It wasn’t until he started doping that he became a ‘great’ rider. And then It was because his physiology meant that doping increased his performance more than other riders.

[epom]

Ah the ol racism card. Classy.

[Randy Winkman]

Ladders said:

Randy Winkman said:

I'm sure she was really good anyway. Likewise, I think Lance Armstrong was a really gifted athlete and an exceptionally strong personality who was born to be a team leader. Albeit of the dishonest/cheating type.

Lance Armstrong was a mediocre rider when he moved to the continent. It wasn’t until he started doping that he became a ‘great’ rider. And then It was because his physiology meant that doping increased his performance more than other riders.

I hope it's Ok to quote this much from Wiki ….

"At age 16, Armstrong began competing as a triathlete and was a national sprint-course triathlon champion in 1989 (aged 18) and 1990. In 1992, Armstrong began his career as a professional cyclist with the Motorola team. He had notable success between 1993 and 1996 with the World Championship (Road Race) in 1993 (aged 22) , the Clásica de San Sebastián in 1995, Tour DuPont in 1995 and 1996, and a handful of stage victories in Europe, including stage 8 of the 1993 Tour de France and stage 18 of the 1995 Tour de France."

I don't think that suggests he was ever going to be mediocre.

[anonymous-user]

Randy Winkman said:

I don't think that suggests he was ever going to be mediocre.

All these dopers would be amazing athletes without doping. It’s all about the extra couple of % and aiding recovery.

An average athlete doping is still going to be average.

[Zarco]

El stovey said:

Halb said:

Randy Winkman said:

I don't think we disagree on that much here. All I'm really trying to say is that it looks to me like the sport is in a better place now than it was 30 years ago with regards drugs. Back then I'm not sure there was a hope of winning without them. Now, I hope there is. I should add that I am one of those that's suspicious of performances that go beyond the norm. But I'd never even post about it on here without evidence. My view on cycling is the same. Though being honest, I'm more confident of athletics than cycling - and I love cycling too.

Yeah. I wasn't actually disagreeing, just being a genuine devil's advocate. I do think she was on the best stuff as well as finding her sweet spot. In the 80's HGH was the new stuff while tests were being done for testosterone, then the tests caught up, but the people who want that professional advantage will always be ahead of the curve. The stuff they're on now will be known about in a few years I reckon.
My own personal opinion is that it's a waste of time, and they should just come clean what they're on. That all PEDs should be allowed and we could advance our own understanding of the subject, instead of this sham world that has been created where we know 90% are doped but the charades of 'natural' is played out for the masses. It's almost as big a joke as politics/democracy and the lies we tell ourselves about that.

Admitting to doping puts off sponsors and funding though and opens people up to criminal prosecutions and fraud etc.

I can’t imagine sports where doping was openly allowed would attract the same money. Maybe in future it will be viewed like having better facilities or better equipment but it’s got a way to go that would happen I think.

If all PEDs were allowed it would turn into a complete freak show (especially for the women).

[Ladders]

Randy Winkman said:

I hope it's Ok to quote this much from Wiki ….

"At age 16, Armstrong began competing as a triathlete and was a national sprint-course triathlon champion in 1989 (aged 18) and 1990. In 1992, Armstrong began his career as a professional cyclist with the Motorola team. He had notable success between 1993 and 1996 with the World Championship (Road Race) in 1993 (aged 22) , the Clásica de San Sebastián in 1995, Tour DuPont in 1995 and 1996, and a handful of stage victories in Europe, including stage 8 of the 1993 Tour de France and stage 18 of the 1995 Tour de France."

I don't think that suggests he was ever going to be mediocre.

As you have quoted above. He started racing in Europe in the early 90’s and had his arse kicked. That’s why he started doping. Hence the achievements from 93 onwards. I didn’t say he had a mediocre career, I said he was a mediocre rider on the continent compared to continental riders before he doped.

[anonymous-user]

Ladders said:

As you have quoted above. He started racing in Europe in the early 90’s and had his arse kicked. That’s why he started doping. Hence the achievements from 93 onwards. I didn’t say he had a mediocre career, I said he was a mediocre rider on the continent compared to continental riders before he doped.

I think Armstrong turned up with his team and realised everyone else was doping and kicking their arses so they had to wise up PDQ.

[Randy Winkman]

Ladders said:

Randy Winkman said:

I hope it's Ok to quote this much from Wiki ….

"At age 16, Armstrong began competing as a triathlete and was a national sprint-course triathlon champion in 1989 (aged 18) and 1990. In 1992, Armstrong began his career as a professional cyclist with the Motorola team. He had notable success between 1993 and 1996 with the World Championship (Road Race) in 1993 (aged 22) , the Clásica de San Sebastián in 1995, Tour DuPont in 1995 and 1996, and a handful of stage victories in Europe, including stage 8 of the 1993 Tour de France and stage 18 of the 1995 Tour de France."

I don't think that suggests he was ever going to be mediocre.

As you have quoted above. He started racing in Europe in the early 90’s and had his arse kicked. That’s why he started doping. Hence the achievements from 93 onwards. I didn’t say he had a mediocre career, I said he was a mediocre rider on the continent compared to continental riders before he doped.

But he was born in Sept 1971, turned pro in 1992 and was world road race champ in 1993. How could he have been more successful at such a young age? If he "had his arse kicked" before then, who cares? Isn't that normal in pro cycling?

[Ladders]

Randy Winkman said:

But he was born in Sept 1971, turned pro in 1992 and was world road race champ in 1993. How could he have been more successful at such a young age? If he "had his arse kicked" before then, who cares? Isn't that normal in pro cycling?

Ok, you win. He was the greatest cyclist ever!

I’ll carry on having Greg Lemond as my personal greatest American rider.

[Randy Winkman]

Ladders said:

Randy Winkman said:

But he was born in Sept 1971, turned pro in 1992 and was world road race champ in 1993. How could he have been more successful at such a young age? If he "had his arse kicked" before then, who cares? Isn't that normal in pro cycling?

Ok, you win. He was the greatest cyclist ever!

I’ll carry on having Greg Lemond as my personal greatest American rider.

Let's just agree to disagree. I certainly never expected to be the Lance Armstrong apologist. I cant stand him by the way and love Greg Lemond. The first TdF I watched on TV was the one he won by 8 secs and I've watched it ever since.

[Talksteer]

Derek Smith said:

El stovey said:

Unfortunately for Mo it does look a bit dodgy. An event riddled with cheats, being in a very close training team where your training mate and ex coach and some medical staff were all caught cheating and Mo standing by them after whistleblower allegations became public.

It’s pretty unusual for a coach and team mate and doctors to be doping and others in the group not to be or not to know about it.

Sure there’s no evidence of Mo cheating but there wasn’t for Armstrong until he admitted it. Pro cycling saw many situations like this where the cheating was endemic in a team or squad not just a coach and doctor giving it to one athlete. It’s made worse when athletes like Mo stood by the coach and banned athletes and then said they didn’t know, which is highly unlikely.

It was a similar situation with usain bolt where Jamaican sprinting was/is riddled with cheating from top down but Bolt was somehow clean.

Very few ex dopers like Armstrong were actually caught by testing.

Indeed. Armstrong wan't caught by testing, at least, when he failed tests, it didn't result in penalties.

The trick is not the doping itself, but making it past the tests. They are reactive, so the testers have to await the next tactic. That and the willful blindness of the press. I remember Liggett, ranting when the result of a test on a South American cyclist was leaked. It showed traces of a masking agent that was going to be banned after the TdF. Liggett ranted on about how unfair it was, and said nothing about the reasons why a cyclist should inject a masking agents that had no beneficial properties.

It wasn't until the press conference when Armstrong publicly attacked the journo who was trying to expose the level of drug taking in the sport that I started to be suspicious. Armstrong might as well had a sign in front of him saying liar.

Testing results mean nothing.

The sad thing is we won't know either way, but we might get another journo who goes against the 'you scratch my back' ethos, the one that kept Armstrong in place, and we discover that certain athletes did indeed take drugs.

I was very angry about Armstrong when it became obvious what he'd been doing. I think it was mainly because I'd been taken in completely by him. Since then, I've always been suspicious of those a long way ahead of their nearest rivals.

Since the biological passport came in in 2008/9 that isn't precisely how drugs testing has worked.

The passport doesn't look for banned substanced directly but looks for their effects, it also generate intel whcih can be used to investigate atheletes by other means.

[okgo]

lol, finally this all starts to fall to bits.

I've not for a second believe Mo was legit, and he comes over a total snake in interviews, just dodging and flat out refusing to answer questions.

I'm also glad to see that the general public finally getting their thick heads around the fact cycling isn't the only sport people get caught cheating, one day the layman will realise that doping is huge in tennis, football, rugby (one of the most laughable of all sports), and obviously athletics, as proved by Icarus. And GB got more medals that year filth the lot of it.

[abzmike]

okgo said:

lol, finally this all starts to fall to bits.

I've not for a second believe Mo was legit, and he comes over a total snake in interviews, just dodging and flat out refusing to answer questions.

I'm also glad to see that the general public finally getting their thick heads around the fact cycling isn't the only sport people get caught cheating, one day the layman will realise that doping is huge in tennis, football, rugby (one of the most laughable of all sports), and obviously athletics, as proved by Icarus. And GB got more medals that year filth the lot of it.

I've totally lost interest in athletics. As much as the athletes, so seem a uniformly unlikeable media trained set of robots, it's the santimonious holier than thou attitude of UK Athletics and the BOA, along with the BBC. When a UK athlete gets pinged there is always a plausable explanation, when it's a foreigner they are immediatley a cheat and need stripped of medals back the under 10s schoolboys 100metres.

[anonymous-user]

Seb Coe annoys me too. Always trying to downplay doping in athletics and then says they all knew the USSR were doping in the 80s but nobody spoke out about it for the good of the sport. Then his criticism of Christie for doping and then as vice and then head of the IAAF knowing about all the cover ups and refusing to give more evidence to a commons inquiry.

[okgo]

El stovey said:

Seb Coe annoys me too. Always trying to downplay doping in athletics and then says they all knew the USSR were doping in the 80s but nobody spoke out about it for the good of the sport. Then his criticism of Christie for doping and then as vice and then head of the IAAF knowing about all the cover ups and refusing to give more evidence to a commons inquiry.

He is one of the worst people in sport.

Total tt.

[vonuber]

okgo said:

He is one of the worst people in sport.

Total tt.

Nike ambassador too - well until it was pointed out that it was a conflict of interest.

And Salazar was at a nike training camp, along with all the others.

[Slaav]

vonuber said:

okgo said:

He is one of the worst people in sport.

Total tt.

Nike ambassador too - well until it was pointed out that it was a conflict of interest.

And Salazar was at a nike training camp, along with all the others.

I do hope he is clean but I must say that there is an awful lot of circumstantial evidence surrounding him and his ex coach.....

Innocent until proven guilty though and it will be good to see if there is a tail off on his personal performance above and beyond any age related changes?!?!?!