War with Russia

Author
Discussion

hidetheelephants

23,732 posts

192 months

Friday 25th April 2014
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Esseesse said:
fiatpower said:
Pesty said:
There is a lot of armour moving around out there

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=o8_...
That is one big convoy! Where abouts in Russia is that?
http://pissinontheroses.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/3-k...
I wish people wouldn't call them tanks; they're armoured personnel carriers, and fairly crappy ones at that. It's the russian equivalent of a Saxon, a biscuit tin on wheels.

Art0ir

9,401 posts

169 months

Friday 25th April 2014
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Vice News have been running an absolutely superb series in Eastern Ukraine for the past few weeks. I missed this one, but it's worth watching to the end (or skip to 6:45 at least...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTdkY8tl2b0

Fittster

20,120 posts

212 months

Friday 25th April 2014
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Syria and Libya aren't allowed to turn their military on their population but Ukraine is. It's almost as if there are some double standards at play.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 25th April 2014
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Fittster said:
Syria and Libya aren't allowed to turn their military on their population but Ukraine is. It's almost as if there are some double standards at play.
Yes... because Russia really cared about what Assad did to his population in Syria wink

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
Fittster said:
Syria and Libya aren't allowed to turn their military on their population but Ukraine is. It's almost as if there are some double standards at play.
I think this is one of the main grievances held by Putin. If the West wanted to be 'in charge' then fair enough but that gave us the responsibility to lead by example.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I honestly can't believe you are comparing Ukraine using commandos to remove occupiers from town halls, with Assad dropping chemical weapons on his population

Pesty

42,655 posts

255 months

Friday 25th April 2014
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
We should be helping the freedom fighters in the Ukraine if we were consistent. Don't we do that these days, up port armed rebellions ?

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
PugwasHDJ80 said:
I disagree

Its neutral because it has a surprisingly large and well equipped army, with an armed populace to back it up, in terrain which is ridiculously defensible (and is still prepared to be defended).

It is far far easier to go round Switzerland than through it on all sides!
No, that is what has allowed it to remain neutral when other neutral countries have been over-run. Its neutrality is a choice, which all sovereign states should be able to make.

Fittster

20,120 posts

212 months

Friday 25th April 2014
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
How many of it's own population is a government allowed to kill before it becomes an issue?

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
There's a number of reasons why to me it's quite different from Syria. It's also not only about numbers, but intent.

According to UK news, in Syria chemical weapons were used, which are indiscriminate about who they kill. In Ukraine, 5 people died the other day. It's an assumption but I think they were involved in a gun fight with Ukraine authorities after taking by force government buildings? Considering what has been going on in Ukraine, 5 people does not sound like the govt are on a killing spree. In fact it makes them sound like they're using the minimum required force.

On top of that it's highly debatable that the people killed are actually their own population rather than foreign invaders.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
Neither side is the innocent party here.

It's a game of 'silent war' between the West and Russia, pushing countries in/out of Russian/Western leaning or control.

The pushing and pulling has been going on for ages.


If you look at the situation the ONLY thing that should matter to the democratic west is democracy, but it seems they are unhappy with democracy. They want democracy that leans to the West, not neutrality, and certainly not leaning to Russia.

At least Russia are consistent in their bullst and propaganda... the West talk about freedom and democracy but didn't seem happy with an independent and stable Ukraine that wasn't leaning either way.

Munter

31,319 posts

240 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Neither side is the innocent party here.

It's a game of 'silent war' between the West and Russia, pushing countries in/out of Russian/Western leaning or control.

The pushing and pulling has been going on for ages.


If you look at the situation the ONLY thing that should matter to the democratic west is democracy, but it seems they are unhappy with democracy. They want democracy that leans to the West, not neutrality, and certainly not leaning to Russia.

At least Russia are consistent in their bullst and propaganda... the West talk about freedom and democracy but didn't seem happy with an independent and stable Ukraine that wasn't leaning either way.
Am I missing something?

Ukrainian Gov voted in.
Majority of Ukrainians want closer ties with Europe. Better trade links, better personal rights etc
Ukrainian Gov with a bit of bribery etc decides that Russia is more attractive.
Majority of Ukrainians support demonstrations against such a move towards Russia.
West supports the principal of democracy and awaits election of new Gov in Ukraine.
Russia decides it'd like Crimea and other Russia friendly areas of Ukraine, so invades Crimea, holds an illegal vote, and stirs up trouble in other areas not so easy to take as fast, in the hope of gaining them as well.
The West says, you could take Crimea IF you'd done this legally, but you didn't. So give it back and start again.
Russia says no we'll take what we want regardless of votes/democracy/laws.
West says let the Ukrainian people have their election, sort out their unrest, and then hold proper votes on who want's to be friends with who.
Russia says "fk you, fk the horse you rode in on, fk your mother, you'll never do anything because you have to agree and that takes time. We'll do what we want with Ukraine.

Which bit of that is the West being against democracy?

toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
Munter said:
Am I missing something?

Ukrainian Gov voted in.
Majority of Ukrainians want closer ties with Europe. Better trade links, better personal rights etc
Ukrainian Gov with a bit of bribery etc decides that Russia is more attractive.
Majority of Ukrainians support demonstrations against such a move towards Russia.
West supports the principal of democracy and awaits election of new Gov in Ukraine.
Russia decides it'd like Crimea and other Russia friendly areas of Ukraine, so invades Crimea, holds an illegal vote, and stirs up trouble in other areas not so easy to take as fast, in the hope of gaining them as well.
The West says, you could take Crimea IF you'd done this legally, but you didn't. So give it back and start again.
Russia says no we'll take what we want regardless of votes/democracy/laws.
West says let the Ukrainian people have their election, sort out their unrest, and then hold proper votes on who want's to be friends with who.
Russia says "fk you, fk the horse you rode in on, fk your mother, you'll never do anything because you have to agree and that takes time. We'll do what we want with Ukraine.

Which bit of that is the West being against democracy?
I think that sums it up pretty well.

Personally I think this is a massive exercise in deflection back home in Russia. Only a couple of years ago Putin was not that popular and there were demonstrations. He's a clever chap - by reverting to Russian nationalism and stirring up patriotic fervour he has done his ratings the power of good.

He is doing this because he does not want his people to notice that he and his oligarch buddies have stolen everything in Russia for themselves. The Bolshevik revolution smashed the bourgeoisie. Russians apparently have not noticed that a new bourgeoisie are in charge and they have nicked everything from under their noses.

This is Putins game - if he wasn't doing this, he would have to fight battles at home.

It is a dangerous game though. He risks throwing the Russian economy into the toilet. The people that own Russia won't let him do that for ever.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
Munter said:
Mr Whippy said:
Neither side is the innocent party here.

It's a game of 'silent war' between the West and Russia, pushing countries in/out of Russian/Western leaning or control.

The pushing and pulling has been going on for ages.


If you look at the situation the ONLY thing that should matter to the democratic west is democracy, but it seems they are unhappy with democracy. They want democracy that leans to the West, not neutrality, and certainly not leaning to Russia.

At least Russia are consistent in their bullst and propaganda... the West talk about freedom and democracy but didn't seem happy with an independent and stable Ukraine that wasn't leaning either way.
Am I missing something?

Ukrainian Gov voted in.
Majority of Ukrainians want closer ties with Europe. Better trade links, better personal rights etc
Ukrainian Gov with a bit of bribery etc decides that Russia is more attractive.
Majority of Ukrainians support demonstrations against such a move towards Russia.
West supports the principal of democracy and awaits election of new Gov in Ukraine.
Russia decides it'd like Crimea and other Russia friendly areas of Ukraine, so invades Crimea, holds an illegal vote, and stirs up trouble in other areas not so easy to take as fast, in the hope of gaining them as well.
The West says, you could take Crimea IF you'd done this legally, but you didn't. So give it back and start again.
Russia says no we'll take what we want regardless of votes/democracy/laws.
West says let the Ukrainian people have their election, sort out their unrest, and then hold proper votes on who want's to be friends with who.
Russia says "fk you, fk the horse you rode in on, fk your mother, you'll never do anything because you have to agree and that takes time. We'll do what we want with Ukraine.

Which bit of that is the West being against democracy?
I forget that the West is perpetually passive in all international matters. They only step in when they are needed as World Police.

I see good arguments from both 'sides' to make me think that it's probably not so clear cut as the West acting against the nasty Russians again. Just like they did with Iran and Afghanistan.

If you always sit on one side of the fence then you'll make a good argument to support that position.

I just think both sides leadership/decision makers are warmongering greedy self-serving plebs and the world would be better without all of them.


But the West is hypocritical to us at least because from what I hear and then what I see. No doubt people in Russia look at their government and think the exact same. Say one thing, do the opposite.

mcdjl

5,438 posts

194 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
Munter said:
Am I missing something?

Ukrainian Gov voted in.
Majority of Ukrainians want closer ties with Europe. Better trade links, better personal rights etc
Ukrainian Gov with a bit of bribery etc decides that Russia is more attractive.
Majority of Ukrainians support demonstrations against such a move towards Russia.
Elected president ousted in questionable manner
West supports the principal of democracy and awaits election of new Gov in Ukraine.
Russia decides it'd like Crimea and other Russia friendly areas of Ukraine, so invades Crimea, holds an illegal vote, and stirs up trouble in other areas not so easy to take as fast, in the hope of gaining them as well.
The West says, you could take Crimea IF you'd done this legally, but you didn't. So give it back and start again.
Russia says no we'll take what we want regardless of votes/democracy/laws.
West says let the Ukrainian people have their election, sort out their unrest, and then hold proper votes on who want's to be friends with who.
Russia says "fk you, fk the horse you rode in on, fk your mother, you'll never do anything because you have to agree and that takes time. We'll do what we want with Ukraine.

Which bit of that is the West being against democracy?
I think that sums it up pretty well.

Personally I think this is a massive exercise in deflection back home in Russia. Only a couple of years ago Putin was not that popular and there were demonstrations. He's a clever chap - by reverting to Russian nationalism and stirring up patriotic fervour he has done his ratings the power of good.

He is doing this because he does not want his people to notice that he and his oligarch buddies have stolen everything in Russia for themselves. The Bolshevik revolution smashed the bourgeoisie. Russians apparently have not noticed that a new bourgeoisie are in charge and they have nicked everything from under their noses.

This is Putins game - if he wasn't doing this, he would have to fight battles at home.

It is a dangerous game though. He risks throwing the Russian economy into the toilet. The people that own Russia won't let him do that for ever.
I say quetsionable manner, he seemed to dispute it was done in the right way certainly but the parliament did vote on it, rather than the mob...to some extent.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
John Kerry's speech

JohnKerry said:
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesperson
April 24, 2014

REMARKS

Secretary of State John Kerry On Ukraine
April 24, 2014
State Department Press Briefing Room
Washington, D.C.

SECRETARY KERRY: It has now been a week since the United States, the European Union, Russia, and Ukraine met in Geneva. We did so after a phone call between President Putin and President Obama, in which both leaders expressed a desire to avoid further escalation in Ukraine. We met in Geneva with a clear mission: to improve security conditions and find political solutions to the conflict threatening the sovereignty and unity of Ukraine. And right there in Geneva, EU High Representative Ashton and I made clear that both Russia and Ukraine had to demonstrate more than good faith. They needed to take concrete actions in order to meet their commitments.

The simple reality is you can’t resolve a crisis when only one side is willing to do what is necessary to avoid a confrontation. Every day since we left Geneva – every day, even up to today, when Russia sent armored battalions right up the Luhansk Oblast border – the world has witnessed a tale of two countries, two countries with vastly different understandings of what it means to uphold an international agreement.

One week later, it is clear that only one side, one country, is keeping its word. And for anyone who wants to create gray areas out of black, or find in the fine print crude ways to justify crude actions, let’s get real – the Geneva agreement is not open to interpretation. It is not vague. It is not subjective. It is not optional. What we agreed to in Geneva is as simple as it is specific.

We agreed that all sides would refrain from violence, intimidation, and taking provocative actions. We agreed that illegal groups would lay down their arms and that, in exchange for amnesty, they would hand over the public buildings and spaces that they occupied. We agreed that to implement these objectives – and this is important, to implement this – monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe would have unfettered access to parts of Ukraine where they were needed most. And we agreed that all parties would work to create that access and to provide help to the OSCE in order to do this. We agreed that the OSCE would report from the ground whether the rights, security, and dignity of Ukrainian citizens was being protected.

From day one, the Government of Ukraine started making good on its commitments – from day one. From day one, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk has kept his word. He immediately agreed to help vacate buildings. He suspended Ukraine’s counterterrorism initiative over Easter, choosing de-escalation, despite Ukraine’s legitimate, fundamental right to defend its own territory and its own people. From day one, the Ukrainian Government sent senior officials to work with the OSCE, in keeping with the agreement, to send them to work in regions where Russia had voiced its most urgent concerns about the security of Russian speakers and ethnic Russians. And on day one, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk went on live television and committed his government publicly to all of the people of Ukraine that – and these are his words – committed them to undertake comprehensive constitutional reform that will strengthen the powers of the regions. He directly addressed the concerns expressed by the Russians, and he did so on day one.

He also made a personal appeal to Russian-speaking Ukrainians, pledging to support – and again, these are his words – a special status to the Russian language and the protection of the language. And in keeping with his Geneva commitments, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk has publicly announced amnesty legislation – once more, in his words – for all those who surrender arms, come out of the premises and will begin with the Ukrainian people to build a sovereign and independent Ukraine. That is a promise made by the interim government to the people of Ukraine.

And by complying with actions requested by Russia, like removing the barricades in the Maidan and cleaning up the square and ensuring that all ongoing demonstrations in Kyiv are actually government-approved and peaceful, Ukraine is thereby taking tangible, concrete steps to move beyond the division of the last months. That is how a government defines keeping your word. That is leadership that upholds both the spirit and the letter of a Geneva agreement.

The world has rightly judged that Prime Minister Yatsenyuk and the Government of Ukraine are working in good faith. And the world, sadly, has rightly judged that Russia has put its faith in distraction, deception, and destabilization. For seven days, Russia has refused to take a single concrete step in the right direction. Not a single Russian official, not one, has publicly gone on television in Ukraine and called on the separatists to support the Geneva agreement, to support the stand-down, to give up their weapons, and get out of the Ukrainian buildings. They have not called on them to engage in that activity.

In fact, the propaganda bullhorn that is the state-sponsored Russia Today program, has been deployed to promote – actually, Russia Today network – has deployed to promote President Putin’s fantasy about what is playing out on the ground. They almost spend full time devoted to this effort to propagandize and to distort what is happening or not happening in Ukraine. Instead, in plain sight, Russia continues to fund, coordinate, and fuel a heavily armed separatist movement in Donetsk.

Meanwhile, Russian leaders are making increasingly outrageous claims to justify their action – that the CIA invented the internet in order to control the world or that the forces occupying buildings, armed to the teeth, wearing brand new matching uniforms and moving in disciplined military formation, are merely local activists seeking to exercise their legitimate rights. That is absurd, and there is no other word to describe it.

But in the 21st century, where every citizen can broadcast messages, images, and video from the palm of their hand, no amount of propaganda is capable of hiding such actions. No amount of propaganda will hide the truth, and the truth is there in the social media and across the pages of newspapers and in the video of televisions for all of the world to see. No amount of propaganda can withstand that kind of scrutiny today.

The world knows that peaceful protesters don’t come armed with grenade launchers and automatic weapons, the latest issue from the Russian arsenal, hiding the insignias on their brand new matching military uniforms, and speaking in dialects that every local knows comes from thousands of miles away. The world knows that the Russian intelligence operatives arrested in Ukraine didn’t just take a wrong turn on the highway. In fact, we have seen soldiers wearing uniforms identical to the ones Russian soldiers wore in Crimea last month.

As international observers on the ground have borne witness, prior to Russia’s escalation, there was no violence. There was no broad-scale assault on the rights of people in the east. Ukraine was largely stable and peaceful, including in the south and the east. Even as we were preparing to meet in Geneva, we know that the Russian intelligence services were involved in organizing local pro-Russian militias. And during the week leading up to the Geneva meetings, separatists seized at least 29 buildings. This is one more example of how Russia is stoking the very instability that they say they want to quell.

And in the weeks since this agreement, we have seen even more violence visited upon Ukrainians. Right after we left Geneva, separatists seized TV and radio stations that broadcast in the Ukrainian language. The mayor of Slovyansk was kidnapped the very day after the parties committed to end the violence and intimidations. Two days ago, one journalist was kidnapped and another went missing, bringing the total number of kidnapped journalists into the double digits. That same day, two dead bodies were found near Slovyansk. One of them was a city councilmember who had been knocked unconscious and thrown in a river with a weighted backpack strapped to him.

The Government of Ukraine has reported the arrest of Russian intelligence agents, including one yesterday who it says was responsible for establishing secure communications allowing Russia to coordinate destabilizing activities in Ukraine. And then, just this morning, separatist forces tried to overrun another arms depot.

Having failed to postpone Ukraine’s elections, having failed to halt a legitimate political process, Russia has instead chosen an illegitimate course of armed violence to try and achieve with the barrel of a gun and the force of a mob what couldn’t be achieved any other way. They’ve tried to create enough chaos in the east to delay or delegitimize the elections, or to force Ukraine to accept a federalism that gives Russia control over its domestic and foreign policies, or even force Ukraine to overreact and create an excuse for military intervention. This is a full-throated effort to actively sabotage the democratic process through gross external intimidation that has brought inside Ukraine, and it is worse even.

We have seen this movie before. We saw it most recently in Crimea, where similar subterfuge and sabotage by Russia was followed by a full invasion – an invasion, by the way, for which President Putin recently decorated Russian special forces at the Kremlin.

Now Russia claims that all of this is exaggerated, or even orchestrated, that Ukrainians can’t possibly be calling for a government free of corruption and coercion. Russia is actually mystified to see Ukraine’s neighbors and likeminded free people all over the world united with Ukrainians who want to build a better life and choose their leaders for themselves, by themselves.

Nobody should doubt Russia’s hand in this. As NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander in Europe wrote this week, “What is happening in eastern Ukraine is a military operation that is well planned and organized and we assess that it is being carried out at the direction of Russia.” Our intelligence community tells me that Russia’s intelligence and military intelligence services and special operators are playing an active role in destabilizing eastern Ukraine with personnel, weapons, money, operational planning, and coordination. The Ukrainians have intercepted and publicized command-and-control conversations from known Russian agents with their separatist clients in Ukraine. Some of the individual special operations personnel, who were active on Russia’s behalf in Chechnya, Georgia, and Crimea have been photographed in Slovyansk, Donetsk, and Luhansk. Some are even bragging about it by themselves on their Russian social media sites. And we’ve seen weapons and gear on the separatists that matches those worn and used by Russian special forces.

So following today’s threatening movement of Russian troops right up to Ukraine’s border, let me be clear: If Russia continues in this direction, it will not just be a grave mistake, it will be an expensive mistake. Already the international response to the choices made by Russia’s leaders is taking its toll on Russia’s economy. Prime Minister Medvedev has alluded to the cost Russia is already paying. Even President Putin has acknowledged it.

As investors’ confidence dwindles, some $70 billion in capital has fled the Russian financial system in the first quarter of 2014, more than all of last year. Growth estimates for 2014 have been revised downward by two to three percentage points. And this follows a year in which GDP growth was already the lowest since 2009. Meanwhile, the Russian Central Bank has had to spend more than $20 billion to defend the ruble, eroding Russia’s buffers against external shocks. Make no mistake that what I’ve just described is really just a snapshot and is also, regrettably, a preview of how the free world will respond if Russia continues to escalate what they had promised to de-escalate.

Seven days, two opposite responses, and one truth that cannot be ignored: The world will remain united for Ukraine. So I will say it again. The window to change course is closing. President Putin and Russia face a choice. If Russia chooses the path of de-escalation, the international community – all of us – will welcome it. If Russia does not, the world will make sure that the cost for Russia will only grow. And as President Obama reiterated earlier today, we are ready to act.
http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttra...

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
skyrover said:
I honestly can't believe you are comparing Ukraine using commandos to remove occupiers from town halls, with Assad dropping chemical weapons on his population
I'm not comparing. I mean Iraq and Afghanistan, the war on terror, shock and awe, carpet bombing Iraq with cluster bombs, regime change in Iraq, the installation of puppet governments, all this to protect westerners and western interests.
WE SET THE PRECEDENT.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]


Contact has been lost with the OSCE mission in Eastern Ukraine, the German defense ministry confirmed. It is suspected the members of the missions have been kidnapped by Russian separatists.

http://www.tvn24.pl/msz-ukrainy-brak-kontaktu-z-mi...

TheJimi

24,860 posts

242 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
I really can't see Putin backing down over this, as such, this whole thing ain't gonna end well frown