War with Russia
Discussion
Octoposse said:
bout the same time Mexico gets back Texas.
Crimea is now part of Russia. End of. Neither Putin nor any subsequent leader can in any conceivable set of circumstances backtrack.
There's an obvious deal to be done recognising that fact (new constitution in Ukraine, security guarantees, more local autonomy stopping short of federalism), and the sooner 'we' step up to the plate and do the deal rather than grandstanding, the fewer lives lost and lives ruined there will be, and Ukraine less polarised. (It's getting like Israel/Palestine - everybody (OK, bar 0.5% of swivel eyed loons on both sides) knows what a peace deal must look like, they just won't get there).
Worryingly and depressingly, I see no signs of lessons learned or contrition in Brussels or Washington at the calamity following cheerleading (at the very least), or active encouragement, of regime change in a democracy, in a state in which we have no vital strategic interest, but a neighbouring significant power has. Sheer reckless stupidity.
In a sea of idiotic bickering, where everyone pretends to be expert on everything, every now and then, comes pure gem like this. Well reasoned, eloquent, that makes you unintentionally nod while reading. Thanks.Crimea is now part of Russia. End of. Neither Putin nor any subsequent leader can in any conceivable set of circumstances backtrack.
There's an obvious deal to be done recognising that fact (new constitution in Ukraine, security guarantees, more local autonomy stopping short of federalism), and the sooner 'we' step up to the plate and do the deal rather than grandstanding, the fewer lives lost and lives ruined there will be, and Ukraine less polarised. (It's getting like Israel/Palestine - everybody (OK, bar 0.5% of swivel eyed loons on both sides) knows what a peace deal must look like, they just won't get there).
Worryingly and depressingly, I see no signs of lessons learned or contrition in Brussels or Washington at the calamity following cheerleading (at the very least), or active encouragement, of regime change in a democracy, in a state in which we have no vital strategic interest, but a neighbouring significant power has. Sheer reckless stupidity.
Talksteer said:
The biggest difference between the BTR and the Saxon is however mobility and a low profile. The BTR has 8 wheel drive and more power meaning that it can handle most tactical terrain, whereas the Saxon performs like an overloaded Bedford truck.
However the video is demonstrating the effectiveness of this type of vehicle in that they can simple self deploy by road (or off it).
We should field something bad ass like this:
However due to blown budgets we will be fielding this liability in a conflict where the adversary has AT capability.
If the enemy have AT capability which you cannot suppress it doesn't matter which APC your squaddies are in, they are toast(or at least they are walking into battle rather than driving); if you want to protect them from that you end up bankrupt and equipped with something resembling a Merkava. The Saxon performs like an overloaded Bedford truck because that's what it is, a Bedford chassis with a tin box on top.However the video is demonstrating the effectiveness of this type of vehicle in that they can simple self deploy by road (or off it).
We should field something bad ass like this:
However due to blown budgets we will be fielding this liability in a conflict where the adversary has AT capability.
Octoposse said:
Fittster said:
Mermaid said:
TheJimi said:
I really can't see Putin backing down over this, as such, this whole thing ain't gonna end well 
I can't see Putin winning.Crimea is now part of Russia. End of. Neither Putin nor any subsequent leader can in any conceivable set of circumstances backtrack.
There's an obvious deal to be done recognising that fact (new constitution in Ukraine, security guarantees, more local autonomy stopping short of federalism), and the sooner 'we' step up to the plate and do the deal rather than grandstanding, the fewer lives lost and lives ruined there will be, and Ukraine less polarised. (It's getting like Israel/Palestine - everybody (OK, bar 0.5% of swivel eyed loons on both sides) knows what a peace deal must look like, they just won't get there).
Worryingly and depressingly, I see no signs of lessons learned or contrition in Brussels or Washington at the calamity following cheerleading (at the very least), or active encouragement, of regime change in a democracy, in a state in which we have no vital strategic interest, but a neighbouring significant power has. Sheer reckless stupidity.
Asterix said:
Good post - however, often the powers that be don't want a settlement. They'd prefer turmoil - gives them something to do and a means to further themselves.
Very true, Syria being a case in point.The Ukraine situation is bonkers. Reports on BBC that Russian jets have been over-flying Ukrainian territory in the East - testing the radar no doubt.
Read a good point elsewhere:
Putin will surely prevent American astronauts riding on his rockets so the USA will have no way of getting it's people to the International Space Station.
That will be seriously embarrassing.
NASA's wet dream as someone else called it.
When the next scheduled American on a Soyuz trip?
Putin will surely prevent American astronauts riding on his rockets so the USA will have no way of getting it's people to the International Space Station.
That will be seriously embarrassing.
NASA's wet dream as someone else called it.
When the next scheduled American on a Soyuz trip?
Octoposse said:
bout the same time Mexico gets back Texas.
Crimea is now part of Russia. End of. Neither Putin nor any subsequent leader can in any conceivable set of circumstances backtrack.
There's an obvious deal to be done recognising that fact (new constitution in Ukraine, security guarantees, more local autonomy stopping short of federalism), and the sooner 'we' step up to the plate and do the deal rather than grandstanding, the fewer lives lost and lives ruined there will be, and Ukraine less polarised. (It's getting like Israel/Palestine - everybody (OK, bar 0.5% of swivel eyed loons on both sides) knows what a peace deal must look like, they just won't get there).
Worryingly and depressingly, I see no signs of lessons learned or contrition in Brussels or Washington at the calamity following cheerleading (at the very least), or active encouragement, of regime change in a democracy, in a state in which we have no vital strategic interest, but a neighbouring significant power has. Sheer reckless stupidity.
Except for the fact that Putin is one of those "swivel eyed loons".Crimea is now part of Russia. End of. Neither Putin nor any subsequent leader can in any conceivable set of circumstances backtrack.
There's an obvious deal to be done recognising that fact (new constitution in Ukraine, security guarantees, more local autonomy stopping short of federalism), and the sooner 'we' step up to the plate and do the deal rather than grandstanding, the fewer lives lost and lives ruined there will be, and Ukraine less polarised. (It's getting like Israel/Palestine - everybody (OK, bar 0.5% of swivel eyed loons on both sides) knows what a peace deal must look like, they just won't get there).
Worryingly and depressingly, I see no signs of lessons learned or contrition in Brussels or Washington at the calamity following cheerleading (at the very least), or active encouragement, of regime change in a democracy, in a state in which we have no vital strategic interest, but a neighbouring significant power has. Sheer reckless stupidity.
Martin4x4 said:
Except for the fact that Putin is one of those "swivel eyed loons".
Is he? He set up an objective, and executed it without using single bullet, while his counterparts were left with possibility of sending him strongly worded letter. Maybe brushing up on first mover advantage and von Neumann is in order?league67 said:
Octoposse said:
bout the same time Mexico gets back Texas.
Crimea is now part of Russia. End of. Neither Putin nor any subsequent leader can in any conceivable set of circumstances backtrack.
There's an obvious deal to be done recognising that fact (new constitution in Ukraine, security guarantees, more local autonomy stopping short of federalism), and the sooner 'we' step up to the plate and do the deal rather than grandstanding, the fewer lives lost and lives ruined there will be, and Ukraine less polarised. (It's getting like Israel/Palestine - everybody (OK, bar 0.5% of swivel eyed loons on both sides) knows what a peace deal must look like, they just won't get there).
Worryingly and depressingly, I see no signs of lessons learned or contrition in Brussels or Washington at the calamity following cheerleading (at the very least), or active encouragement, of regime change in a democracy, in a state in which we have no vital strategic interest, but a neighbouring significant power has. Sheer reckless stupidity.
The man has a future in the foreign office or as a special adviser. Oh wait, it is well reasoned, pragmatic and cogent. No chance then.Crimea is now part of Russia. End of. Neither Putin nor any subsequent leader can in any conceivable set of circumstances backtrack.
There's an obvious deal to be done recognising that fact (new constitution in Ukraine, security guarantees, more local autonomy stopping short of federalism), and the sooner 'we' step up to the plate and do the deal rather than grandstanding, the fewer lives lost and lives ruined there will be, and Ukraine less polarised. (It's getting like Israel/Palestine - everybody (OK, bar 0.5% of swivel eyed loons on both sides) knows what a peace deal must look like, they just won't get there).
Worryingly and depressingly, I see no signs of lessons learned or contrition in Brussels or Washington at the calamity following cheerleading (at the very least), or active encouragement, of regime change in a democracy, in a state in which we have no vital strategic interest, but a neighbouring significant power has. Sheer reckless stupidity.
In a sea of idiotic bickering, where everyone pretends to be expert on everything, every now and then, comes pure gem like this. Well reasoned, eloquent, that makes you unintentionally nod while reading. Thanks.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Saturday 26th April 13:49
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Martin4x4 said:
Except for the fact that Putin is one of those "swivel eyed loons".
Any worse than Bush, Blair, Cameron or Obama ? Putin does not. He is little more than a modern, self appointed, Tsar. Democracy, Russian style, has little in common with anything we would recognise. He and his oligarch friends have stolen everything Russia has for themselves.
There really is no comparison.
hidetheelephants said:
If the enemy have AT capability which you cannot suppress it doesn't matter which APC your squaddies are in, they are toast(or at least they are walking into battle rather than driving); if you want to protect them from that you end up bankrupt and equipped with something resembling a Merkava. The Saxon performs like an overloaded Bedford truck because that's what it is, a Bedford chassis with a tin box on top.
The ability to suppress is proportional to the offensive capability of the APC though.Asterix said:
Good post - however, often the powers that be don't want a settlement. They'd prefer turmoil - gives them something to do and a means to further themselves.
Yes but what can we do to stop the EU and its constant expansion and meddling without any regard of the outcome and much as I like the Americans it does seem they won't be happy until they have a fur fight with the Russians..hidetheelephants said:
If the enemy have AT capability which you cannot suppress it doesn't matter which APC your squaddies are in, they are toast(or at least they are walking into battle rather than driving); if you want to protect them from that you end up bankrupt and equipped with something resembling a Merkava. The Saxon performs like an overloaded Bedford truck because that's what it is, a Bedford chassis with a tin box on top.
Yeah I was trying to be subtle on the 4 tonner point :-)The point I was making was that an 8X8 platform with a low profile is a much better base for a combat vehicle that goes up against technologically advanced opponents.
The original plans for the FRES vehicles were that they would have some form of hard kill active defence system which would help deal with the advanced anti tank missile threat which has got to the point where the armour schemes of even tanks have difficulty stopping them.
You could fit that to a Mastiff but it's still a massive target that would be chewed up if it ever ran into an IFV or recon vehicles with a cannon.
The 8X8 LAV profile is much more mobile and the lower profile means it's much lighter to armour against kinetic threats. Also you can mount a turret with which to provide fire support and capability against light vehicles. The BAe/Iveco Superav vehicle I posted up before also have similar IED protection to an MRAP.
toppstuff said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Martin4x4 said:
Except for the fact that Putin is one of those "swivel eyed loons".
Any worse than Bush, Blair, Cameron or Obama ? Putin does not. He is little more than a modern, self appointed, Tsar. Democracy, Russian style, has little in common with anything we would recognise. He and his oligarch friends have stolen everything Russia has for themselves.
There really is no comparison.
Sadly I don't see any other any outcome that doesn't involve Russian tanks going all the way up to Kyiv, with at least some stillborn states emerging in eastern Ukraine, joining Abkhazia and South Ossetia. And it has to be done soon, there's less then one month left until the worst nightmare for any true autocrat, free elections.
powerstroke said:
Yes but what can we do to stop the EU and its constant expansion and meddling without any regard of the outcome and much as I like the Americans it does seem they won't be happy until they have a fur fight with the Russians..
The Yanks and Russians should f
k off to their Pacific border and settle it there.toppstuff said:
The western leaders you describe, however you may personally dislike them, at least have the grace to abide by the democracy that created them and step down when their time is done.
Putin does not. He is little more than a modern, self appointed, Tsar. Democracy, Russian style, has little in common with anything we would recognise. He and his oligarch friends have stolen everything Russia has for themselves.
There really is no comparison.
It is not like they are involved in torture of foreign nationals, spying and mass monitoring on their own citizens, bombing citizens of numerous sovereign nations, assassinating their own citizens in other countries or promoting violent overthrows of democratically elected governments, supporting and arming autocratic Islamic fundamentalists governments which imprison and torture democracy demonstrators and finally, are not above a little democratic fraud to get elected. Putin does not. He is little more than a modern, self appointed, Tsar. Democracy, Russian style, has little in common with anything we would recognise. He and his oligarch friends have stolen everything Russia has for themselves.
There really is no comparison.
It is pretty lucky they are thrown out periodically.
I am not convinced that Putin is the only loon in the asylum.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
It is not like they are involved in torture of foreign nationals, spying and mass monitoring on their own citizens, bombing citizens of numerous sovereign nations, assassinating their own citizens in other countries or promoting violent overthrows of democratically elected governments, supporting and arming autocratic Islamic fundamentalists governments which imprison and torture democracy demonstrators and finally, are not above a little democratic fraud to get elected.
It is pretty lucky they are thrown out periodically.
I am not convinced that Putin is the only loon in the asylum.
Difficult to argue with any of that. It is pretty lucky they are thrown out periodically.
I am not convinced that Putin is the only loon in the asylum.
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