War with Russia
Discussion
ShiresV2 said:
AreOut said:
it's rebel tanks with russian flags...captured from ukrainian army
The consensus on the military forum that I read is that they are Ukrainian T-64s. The amount of disinformation from all sides in this conflict is staggering.http://online.wsj.com/articles/nato-says-images-sh...
nelly1 said:
Russia has warned them not to interrupt supplies to the EU however. I have a feeling they're trying to force Ukraine's hand and gain a reason to move in to secure the transitory pipelines.skyrover said:
Yes, I've seen the NATO photos. A few weeks (month? can't recall exactly when) ago NATO were posting images of installations that have been there since Soviet times saying that Russia had not pulled back from the border. I'm no more inclined to believe NATO than I am the Russians or anybody else at this point.Edited by ShiresV2 on Tuesday 17th June 00:27
Where do you folks get your news.... RT? 
The Times said:
The Russian bear roars and Europe hits the snooze button
Leaders must wake up to the perils of appeasement and step up sanctions
Colleen Graffy Published: 15 June 2014
Vladimir Putin seems ready to steamroller all opposition (Photo: Maxim Marmur)
It was 2008, and top of the agenda for the Nato summit in Romania that year was whether Georgia and Ukraine should be given not membership of Nato but a “roadmap” to membership. Germany and France led opposition to the idea, because they believed it would provoke “the Russian Bear”. Russia’s concerns were placated; the path to Nato membership was denied. Four months later Russia invaded Georgia.
The disputed territories, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, located within the recognised borders of Georgia, were being managed through “peacekeeping” forces that included Russia — a partner less inclined to keep the peace than to stir the pot. Before the invasion, Russia had been violating the airspace over Georgia; it reneged on sanctions that prohibited delivery of military equipment to the area; it shot down a Georgian drone and then claimed vehemently it hadn’t — until images of the Russian fighter jet snuffing it out were produced; and three months before the attack, it began helpfully repairing a key railway line in Abkhazia in order to deliver “humanitarian aid”.
Every step of the way, the West sought to engage Russia, wanting only to believe what it said — and ignoring what it did. And here we are again, co-operating with Russia in the vain hope that somehow the outcome will be different.
Russia’s response is to follow the Georgian playbook. It declared that it did not have any Russian military in Crimea, until it later admitted, after annexing Crimea, that it did (and now we are to believe that there is none in eastern Ukraine); the Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov recently admitted they are sending aid to eastern Ukraine — but only “humanitarian aid”; and the leader of the separatists’ self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic recently flew to Moscow to drum up support — belying Vladimir Putin’s promise to cease supporting separatists in eastern Ukraine. It is now confirmed that three Russian tanks have rolled across the border and Russian rocket launchers were used to shoot down a Ukrainian transport plane, killing 49 people.
Most countries have been hitting the “Snooze” button. Germany, Europe’s economic powerhouse, is unwilling to stump up the 2% of GDP on defence that is supposed to be the technical requirement for Nato membership. In a grand gesture of solidarity with its eastern allies, Germany recently announced a “doubling” of troops to Poland —impressive until you learn that that takes the number from 59 to a whopping 118. Even “no cost” efforts by Germany, such as pushing back against the creeping propaganda and lobbying by Russia, are a price too great to bear. Russia and misguided Germans have managed to sway German public opinion against Nato and into believing that sanctions would damage the German economy, even though Russia falls below 10 other nations including Italy, Switzerland, Poland and Belgium in terms of Germany’s major trade partners.
The UK is one of only four Nato countries — the others are Estonia, Greece and the US — that spend at least 2% of GDP on defence, but it is well known that recent cuts have significantly weakened Britain’s military capacity. While most of Europe seems to believe its greatest threat comes from the Eurovision song contest, Putin has increased defence expenditure by 79% over the past decade and spends 4.5% of GDP on Russia’s defence — or rather offence — budget. In a stunning own goal, France is selling two Mistral-class warships for £1bn to Russia.
The US Congress has joined other voices — particularly those in Poland, Norway, Sweden and the Baltic states — in urging France to rethink the sale. The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is on record as supporting completion of the sale by the French president, François Hollande, because sanctions are not at the “third stage”, which would cover exports to Russia.
However, in a press conference with President Barack Obama following the G7 summit, David Cameron laid out the conditions Putin must meet in order to avoid harsher sanctions: recognise Petro Poroshenko as the new leader of Ukraine; stop arms crossing the border; and cease support for pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine. News that Russia has supplied tanks and anti-aircraft weapons to the separatists should immediately trigger the “third stage” sanctions, and France should be prevented from going ahead with a sale that sends further signals to Russia that they can continue in their illegal land grabs.
Nato and the West have tried co-operating with the Russian Bear; they have engaged with the Russian Bear; now they are in danger of appeasing it. We have learnt the hard way the consequences of appeasement. Stop feeding the Bear.
Colleen Graffy is a law professor with Pepperdine University based in London and former US deputy assistant secretary of state.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/comment/regula...Leaders must wake up to the perils of appeasement and step up sanctions
Colleen Graffy Published: 15 June 2014
Vladimir Putin seems ready to steamroller all opposition (Photo: Maxim Marmur)
It was 2008, and top of the agenda for the Nato summit in Romania that year was whether Georgia and Ukraine should be given not membership of Nato but a “roadmap” to membership. Germany and France led opposition to the idea, because they believed it would provoke “the Russian Bear”. Russia’s concerns were placated; the path to Nato membership was denied. Four months later Russia invaded Georgia.
The disputed territories, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, located within the recognised borders of Georgia, were being managed through “peacekeeping” forces that included Russia — a partner less inclined to keep the peace than to stir the pot. Before the invasion, Russia had been violating the airspace over Georgia; it reneged on sanctions that prohibited delivery of military equipment to the area; it shot down a Georgian drone and then claimed vehemently it hadn’t — until images of the Russian fighter jet snuffing it out were produced; and three months before the attack, it began helpfully repairing a key railway line in Abkhazia in order to deliver “humanitarian aid”.
Every step of the way, the West sought to engage Russia, wanting only to believe what it said — and ignoring what it did. And here we are again, co-operating with Russia in the vain hope that somehow the outcome will be different.
Russia’s response is to follow the Georgian playbook. It declared that it did not have any Russian military in Crimea, until it later admitted, after annexing Crimea, that it did (and now we are to believe that there is none in eastern Ukraine); the Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov recently admitted they are sending aid to eastern Ukraine — but only “humanitarian aid”; and the leader of the separatists’ self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic recently flew to Moscow to drum up support — belying Vladimir Putin’s promise to cease supporting separatists in eastern Ukraine. It is now confirmed that three Russian tanks have rolled across the border and Russian rocket launchers were used to shoot down a Ukrainian transport plane, killing 49 people.
Most countries have been hitting the “Snooze” button. Germany, Europe’s economic powerhouse, is unwilling to stump up the 2% of GDP on defence that is supposed to be the technical requirement for Nato membership. In a grand gesture of solidarity with its eastern allies, Germany recently announced a “doubling” of troops to Poland —impressive until you learn that that takes the number from 59 to a whopping 118. Even “no cost” efforts by Germany, such as pushing back against the creeping propaganda and lobbying by Russia, are a price too great to bear. Russia and misguided Germans have managed to sway German public opinion against Nato and into believing that sanctions would damage the German economy, even though Russia falls below 10 other nations including Italy, Switzerland, Poland and Belgium in terms of Germany’s major trade partners.
The UK is one of only four Nato countries — the others are Estonia, Greece and the US — that spend at least 2% of GDP on defence, but it is well known that recent cuts have significantly weakened Britain’s military capacity. While most of Europe seems to believe its greatest threat comes from the Eurovision song contest, Putin has increased defence expenditure by 79% over the past decade and spends 4.5% of GDP on Russia’s defence — or rather offence — budget. In a stunning own goal, France is selling two Mistral-class warships for £1bn to Russia.
The US Congress has joined other voices — particularly those in Poland, Norway, Sweden and the Baltic states — in urging France to rethink the sale. The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is on record as supporting completion of the sale by the French president, François Hollande, because sanctions are not at the “third stage”, which would cover exports to Russia.
However, in a press conference with President Barack Obama following the G7 summit, David Cameron laid out the conditions Putin must meet in order to avoid harsher sanctions: recognise Petro Poroshenko as the new leader of Ukraine; stop arms crossing the border; and cease support for pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine. News that Russia has supplied tanks and anti-aircraft weapons to the separatists should immediately trigger the “third stage” sanctions, and France should be prevented from going ahead with a sale that sends further signals to Russia that they can continue in their illegal land grabs.
Nato and the West have tried co-operating with the Russian Bear; they have engaged with the Russian Bear; now they are in danger of appeasing it. We have learnt the hard way the consequences of appeasement. Stop feeding the Bear.
Colleen Graffy is a law professor with Pepperdine University based in London and former US deputy assistant secretary of state.
nellyleelephant said:
& Gas deals will soon be concluded at a sensible price.nellyleelephant said:
I hope yes, but expect the worse. The way the Russian rhetoric is escalating, the western attentions diverged to the clusterf
k in Iraq, the Russians probing the western support by increasingly sending more 'volunteers' and armament, and the Ukrainian army going to assume sitting duck positions in the border, the conditions are ripe to explode at any time. raftom said:
nellyleelephant said:
I hope yes, but expect the worse. The way the Russian rhetoric is escalating, the western attentions diverged to the clusterfk in Iraq, the Russians probing the western support by increasingly sending more 'volunteers' and armament, and the Ukrainian army going to assume sitting duck positions in the border, the conditions are ripe to explode at any time. skyrover said:
Art0ir said:
Russia has warned them not to interrupt supplies to the EU however. I have a feeling they're trying to force Ukraine's hand and gain a reason to move in to secure the transitory pipelines.
Russia will likely restrict gas supplies and claim Ukrainian siphoningArt0ir said:
skyrover said:
Art0ir said:
Russia has warned them not to interrupt supplies to the EU however. I have a feeling they're trying to force Ukraine's hand and gain a reason to move in to secure the transitory pipelines.
Russia will likely restrict gas supplies and claim Ukrainian siphoningMojocvh said:
Remind us of the quantity and duration of the gas supply deal the soviets Russians and Chinese signed a fortnight ago...
30 years at below market value http://online.wsj.com/articles/gazprom-expects-25-...
Remember this guy?
info said:
The self-proclaimed mayor of Slovyansk Ponomaryov was dismissed for rape
New details appeared about the controversial dismissal of the “people’s” mayor of Slovyanks Vyacheslav Ponomaryov by another “people’s” leader of the so-called “Donetsk People’s Republic” Igor “Strelok” Girkin.
Despite the fact that the reasons for the dismissal of Ponomaryov were carefully hidden by the leadership of the self-proclaimed “DPR”, sources close to the Ponomaryov’s press secretary Stella Khorosheva report that Ponomaryov was suspended for his drug addiction, and as a result, commitment of many crimes, the culmination of which was a rape of a minor girl Alina K. Reports Obozrevatel.
Ponomaryov committed the rape under the influence of narcotic substance. The “people’s” mayor was in a critical condition for a few days from a drug overdose.
Stella Khorosheva, being a close contact of Ponomaryov, considers, via her aides, possible options and ways to escape form Slovyansk.
It is worth noting that the decision was made by Girkin personally during several days, as he had a dilemma: whether to make a public statement for society and thus suffer serious image losses or limit the communication to a dry note on the Facebook page, which in the end was what he chose.
The official version of the arrest of Vyacheslav Ponomaryov at the moment is “undesignated waste of town treasury”. Reports Obozrevatel with reference to its sources.
According to Obozrevatel mother of the arrested by militants and suspended from his “post” self-proclaimed mayor of Slovyansk Vacheslav Ponomaryov has addressed the residents of the town to protect her son.
http://inforesist.org/en/the-self-proclaimed-mayor...New details appeared about the controversial dismissal of the “people’s” mayor of Slovyanks Vyacheslav Ponomaryov by another “people’s” leader of the so-called “Donetsk People’s Republic” Igor “Strelok” Girkin.
Despite the fact that the reasons for the dismissal of Ponomaryov were carefully hidden by the leadership of the self-proclaimed “DPR”, sources close to the Ponomaryov’s press secretary Stella Khorosheva report that Ponomaryov was suspended for his drug addiction, and as a result, commitment of many crimes, the culmination of which was a rape of a minor girl Alina K. Reports Obozrevatel.
Ponomaryov committed the rape under the influence of narcotic substance. The “people’s” mayor was in a critical condition for a few days from a drug overdose.
Stella Khorosheva, being a close contact of Ponomaryov, considers, via her aides, possible options and ways to escape form Slovyansk.
It is worth noting that the decision was made by Girkin personally during several days, as he had a dilemma: whether to make a public statement for society and thus suffer serious image losses or limit the communication to a dry note on the Facebook page, which in the end was what he chose.
The official version of the arrest of Vyacheslav Ponomaryov at the moment is “undesignated waste of town treasury”. Reports Obozrevatel with reference to its sources.
According to Obozrevatel mother of the arrested by militants and suspended from his “post” self-proclaimed mayor of Slovyansk Vacheslav Ponomaryov has addressed the residents of the town to protect her son.
His 15 minutes of fame came at a high cost.
UN report said:
A total of 356 people are known to have been killed since mid-April, Gianni Magazzeni, a senior United Nations human rights official, told reporters in Geneva as he presented the latest in a series of monthly reports by the United Nations’ team of 34 monitors in Ukraine.
Fighting between the Ukrainian Army and armed groups in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk has increased in regularity and intensity as the government in Kiev seeks to assert its authority, and has led to a growing number of civilian casualties, the United Nations reported, noting that separatist groups have acknowledged that their ranks include fighters from Chechnya, a Russian republic, and elsewhere in the Caucasus.
The dead included 257 civilians and 86 Ukrainian military personnel, including the 49 who were killed last week when separatists shot down a military transport plane with a shoulder-launched missile as it approached Luhansk airport, Mr. Magazzeni said. The report did not offer additional details about the remaining 13 deaths.
“We are talking of a reign of fear, if not of terror” in the territory around Donetsk and Luhansk controlled by armed separatists and now in a state of lawlessness, Mr. Magazzeni said, citing cases of people shot at checkpoints for no reason and members of armed groups who were summarily shot because they no longer wanted to fight.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/world/europe/un-...
Fighting between the Ukrainian Army and armed groups in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk has increased in regularity and intensity as the government in Kiev seeks to assert its authority, and has led to a growing number of civilian casualties, the United Nations reported, noting that separatist groups have acknowledged that their ranks include fighters from Chechnya, a Russian republic, and elsewhere in the Caucasus.
The dead included 257 civilians and 86 Ukrainian military personnel, including the 49 who were killed last week when separatists shot down a military transport plane with a shoulder-launched missile as it approached Luhansk airport, Mr. Magazzeni said. The report did not offer additional details about the remaining 13 deaths.
“We are talking of a reign of fear, if not of terror” in the territory around Donetsk and Luhansk controlled by armed separatists and now in a state of lawlessness, Mr. Magazzeni said, citing cases of people shot at checkpoints for no reason and members of armed groups who were summarily shot because they no longer wanted to fight.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/world/europe/un-...
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