War with Russia

[Esseesse]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Those magnanimous EU officials, promising democracy, but delivering rightleft wing fascists and budget deficits. It seem self determination and succession is only available when they say so.

[AreOut]

Bluebarge said:

http://news.yahoo.com/surge-russian-aircraft-seen-...

So, my little Russian friend - presumably that is all propaganda?

"Ministry says it has recorded more than 180 incidents of Russian military planes straying "dangerously close" to Latvia's airspace without identifying themselves."

oh what a hooliganism, please stop with this

[Mr Whippy]

Bluebarge said:

Mr Whippy said:

Wasn't it a Western choreographed coup to bring the area to the West that caused the instability and then Russian involvement in the first place?

It seems that if the West had left it alone they'd have had self determination. Instead the West forced themselves upon the region... so how was that providing self-determination for the people of the region?

So it was either going to be Europe/Westernised, or "Russified"... which is better when both sides are willing to take away the true democratic right of self-determination is irrelevant.


And lets not pretend the West's economics and policies are great news either. According to many the USA has slipped into being more reflective of an oligarchy than a democracy.


Neither side come out smelling of roses. Personally I'm scared of either 'super power'... the motives behind both the West and Russia are driven by greed and power of a few. Screw the actual people they're apparently representing/serving.

Dave

WTF are you on about?

Western-choreographed coup? Any evidence for that apart from Russia Today?

Who would have had self-determination? The Ukrainians (whose borders were imposed upon them by a previous generation of Russians) already had it - now that right is being removed from the eastern provinces of Ukraine by the Russian army.

West "forced itself upon the region"??? - we are talking about a trade agreement with the EU - the EU FFS - the organisation that takes bloody months to agree on anything because it needs the agreement of its 27 members. Just a trade agreement.

USA an oligarchy??? - it's a democracy, one of the World's oldest - it may not be perfect, nowhere is, but do you seriously think the rights, freedoms and opportunities available to a Russian are the same as those on offer to a US citizen??? Have you noticed who is currently US president? Son of a Kenyan immigrant? A public rights lawyer - which branch of the Oligarchy do you think he belongs to?

You really need to lay off the vodka before lunch Tovarich - even by RT standards, you sound seriously deluded.

Yes, of course I have evidence of it

Just like all the other 'evidence' we have of the West manipulating foreign affairs to their own ends the world over.

But of course *this* time it's different. It always is.


Recent studies have suggested the USA reflects an oligarchy more than a democracy. I believe it was a USA university that made that statement.

Who is US president and their race is irrelevant isn't it? He's a USA citizen so he can be president.

All that matters is what mono-tone he delivers to the USA citizenry.


I'm not Russian, fortunately. But I've got my eyes open enough to see that both West and Russia have political bodies that now merely serve their own ends and those of corporates.

To align myself either way would be stupid unless I somehow have a personal buy in, and I can't see that I do.

Dave

[Bluebarge]

AreOut said:

Bluebarge said:

http://news.yahoo.com/surge-russian-aircraft-seen-...

So, my little Russian friend - presumably that is all propaganda?

"Ministry says it has recorded more than 180 incidents of Russian military planes straying "dangerously close" to Latvia's airspace without identifying themselves."

oh what a hooliganism, please stop with this

Well done, you picked about the only Baltic country in that list that hasn't had an unauthorised incursion by a Russian aircraft. Nice selective quoting.

[Bluebarge]

Mr Whippy said:

Who is US president and their race is irrelevant isn't it? He's a USA citizen so he can be president.

All that matters is what mono-tone he delivers to the USA citizenry.

I'll ignore all the tin-foil hattery in the rest of your post and focus on this point, because it is pertinent to your suggestion that the USA is an oligarchy. An oligarchy is rule by a privileged group, whether that be ex-KGB agents who have corralled the levers of power by means of force and subversion of the rule of law (Russia) or a miltary oligarchy (Burma) or simply a country where a few ruling families rotate power between them (can't think of an example at the moment). The USA plainly does not fit this model because Obama is plainly an outsider, Clinton was an outsider, Carter was an outsider - no silver spoons between them - nothing could be further from an oligarchy there.

Obviously, any democratic govt needs support to survive - they need to be alive to the interests that affect the electorate - jobs, defence, welfare - so no govt can do precisely what it wants. But recognising interest groups is a million miles away from being an oligarchy.

There - now we're clear on exactly what an oligarchy is, as opposed to a representative democracy, you can find some other spurious grounds to justify your contention that there is a moral equivalence between Russia's foreign policy and that of the democratic West.

[Mr Whippy]

Bluebarge said:

Mr Whippy said:

Who is US president and their race is irrelevant isn't it? He's a USA citizen so he can be president.

All that matters is what mono-tone he delivers to the USA citizenry.

I'll ignore all the tin-foil hattery in the rest of your post and focus on this point, because it is pertinent to your suggestion that the USA is an oligarchy. An oligarchy is rule by a privileged group, whether that be ex-KGB agents who have corralled the levers of power by means of force and subversion of the rule of law (Russia) or a miltary oligarchy (Burma) or simply a country where a few ruling families rotate power between them (can't think of an example at the moment). The USA plainly does not fit this model because Obama is plainly an outsider, Clinton was an outsider, Carter was an outsider - no silver spoons between them - nothing could be further from an oligarchy there.

Obviously, any democratic govt needs support to survive - they need to be alive to the interests that affect the electorate - jobs, defence, welfare - so no govt can do precisely what it wants. But recognising interest groups is a million miles away from being an oligarchy.

There - now we're clear on exactly what an oligarchy is, as opposed to a representative democracy, you can find some other spurious grounds to justify your contention that there is a moral equivalence between Russia's foreign policy and that of the democratic West.

That would all be fine if Obama actually had any real power to make real changes.

But he doesn't from what I can tell. Power is distributed among the lobbyists paid for by the corporates, and the senate who appear to be heavily supported by corporates on their election campaigns.

Dave

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Bluebarge said:

Mr Whippy said:

Who is US president and their race is irrelevant isn't it? He's a USA citizen so he can be president.

All that matters is what mono-tone he delivers to the USA citizenry.

Obviously, any democratic govt needs support to survive - they need to be alive to the interests that affect the electorate - jobs, defence, welfare - so no govt can do precisely what it wants. But recognising interest groups is a million miles away from being an oligarchy.

I suggest you need to read President Dwight D. Eisenhower Speech.

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/i...

I assume he also was misinformed about the the USA.

Do you have any idea where the saying banana Republic comes from ?

Look it up, it gives a synopsis of the democratic principles that the West, in this case the USA, employ when gifting countries "democracy" and "freedom". The Russians are amateurs in this regard.

Look up project mockingbird, democratic principles in full flight.

[skyrover]

Supposedly a big push by the Russian backed separatists to take Donetsk airport over the past few day's including the use of Russian special forces and massive MLRS support

Ukrainians claim heavy loses for the Russian's and still hold control of the airport

https://twitter.com/MarQs__/status/539313094007455...

Ukrainians than detonated the airport terminal

https://twitter.com/lb_ua/status/53932853804297421...

Today Separatists and Ukrainians have declared a ceasefire around the airport

https://twitter.com/Conflict_Report/status/5394819...

[AreOut]

Bluebarge said:

Well done, you picked about the only Baltic country in that list that hasn't had an unauthorised incursion by a Russian aircraft. Nice selective quoting.

those "incursions" are mainly taking a bit shorter paths and not because those pilots were ordered to do so but because they are russian "d'oh why'd I have to go around" lazy bhes that know noone will dare to shoot them down, that doesn't happen only in Baltics it happened in Colombia where TU160 pilots didn't go around their FIR but instead took a bit shorter path

and it's something US planes do too albeit not that often

[hornetrider]

Chaps. What do the money men think of the rouble collapsing by 9% today? Are they in the brink of becoming properly fked? Looks like Russia are going to inflict controls to stem capital flight.

[skyrover]

Russian money behind fracking protests?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/01/world/russian-mo...

[Stevanos]

Bluebarge said:

Russian mini-sub? - the Swedes are pretty clear where it came from - you know those agressive war-mongering, NATO members the Swedes.

The Swedish public are not that convinced, also Sweden is a large arms exporter so the war-mongering part maybe inaccurate too.

Also, not members of Nato... Just sayin.

[Mr Whippy]

skyrover said:

Russian money behind fracking protests?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/01/world/russian-mo...

Only in the NY times too.

If you go read any Russian news it's all about how evil the USA are too.

They're as bad as each other, and neither 'side' should be trusted.


But to think it's always the 'goodies' in the West against the 'baddies' in the East is just silly.


Right/wrong is just a matter of perspective. This video always makes me chuckle. It was clear in that war who the 'baddies' were, but it didn't stop people thinking otherwise. Today the boundaries are so blurred it's impossible to make any firm judgement except they're all 'baddies'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY

Dave

[Bluebarge]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

I suggest you need to read President Dwight D. Eisenhower Speech.

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/i...

I assume he also was misinformed about the the USA.

Do you have any idea where the saying banana Republic comes from ?

Look it up, it gives a synopsis of the democratic principles that the West, in this case the USA, employ when gifting countries "democracy" and "freedom". The Russians are amateurs in this regard.

Look up project mockingbird, democratic principles in full flight.

That speech was made 53 years ago.

Project Mockingbird is even older.

Friend, you may just have crawled out of your Cold War bunker, but the World has changed a little in the last 50 years. The fact that Comrade Putin doesn't seemed to have realised this is perhaps the cause of today's problems.

Is Russia's failure to modernise its institutions and thinking after the end of the Cold War one of the greatest missed opportunities of the 20th century? You are seeing 19th century enemies all around, when these countries could be your partners. It's a shame for everyone, but most of all for you.

[Bluebarge]

Stevanos said:

Also, not members of Nato... Just sayin.

"Parrot for Stevanos, paging parrot for Stevanos..."

[Bluebarge]

AreOut said:

those "incursions" are mainly taking a bit shorter paths and not because those pilots were ordered to do so but because they are russian "d'oh why'd I have to go around" lazy bhes that know noone will dare to shoot them down, that doesn't happen only in Baltics it happened in Colombia where TU160 pilots didn't go around their FIR but instead took a bit shorter path

and it's something US planes do too albeit not that often

Yes of course, it's all down to laziness - a bit like those Russian troops who couldn't be bothered to get out of their tanks before they went for their holidays in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

Easy mistake to make when you're a highly trained pilot next to a sensitive border.

[Stevanos]

Bluebarge said:

"Parrot for Stevanos, paging parrot for Stevanos..."

How about a magpie?

[Mr Whippy]

Bluebarge said:

You are seeing 19th century enemies all around, when these countries could be your partners. It's a shame for everyone, but most of all for you

Eh, the USA are seeing 20th century enemies all around too.

They've spent almost 25 years since the fall of the USSR fighting 'terror' all around the world.

Dave

[ATG]

Mr Whippy said:

Eh, the USA are seeing 20th century enemies all around too.

They've spent almost 25 years since the fall of the USSR fighting 'terror' all around the world.

Dave

Regardless of whether or not that is the case, so what? How does that make a 19th century world view any less counter-productive?

[Octoposse]

ATG said:

How does that make a 19th century world view any less counter-productive?

Or the eighteenth century world view of the EIC EU . . .

"Excellency, the Sultan of Kiev refuses to sign our trade agreement, and has opened negotiations with Muscovy!"

"Has he by dash? See that the accursed wretch is deposed and replaced by a government more, ah, amenable . . . ".

Meanwhile Russia aligns itself in Ukraine with the very twentieth century principle of the self determination of peoples . . .

OK, (partly) tongue in cheek, but the EU/US's belief that all that is required for peaceful coexistence is that Russia should shut the fk up and do as it's told is great powerish . . .