War with Russia
Discussion
AreOut said:
we were very close couple of times before 30-40 years
Perhaps, back in the day's when it was thought plausible to fight a nuclear war and win.Even at the height of the cold war with almost no communication between east and west, and faulty equipment at least on one occasion identifying a pre-emptive launch, war still did not break out.
We have indeed come close, but thankfully these incidents have made nuclear war less likely than ever.
AreOut said:
if we were lucky then it doesn't mean we will have the same luck now
I think it's a bit demeaning to the individuals involved to discount their difficult diplomacy and decision making as luck.Lets take the Soviet B-59 Submarine Incident for example...
On October 27, 1962, at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the American destroyer USS Beale began dropping depth charges on the nuclear-armed Soviet submarine B-59, which was lurking near the U.S. blockade line around Cuba. The charges were non-lethal warning shots intended to force B-59 to the surface, but the submarine’s captain mistook them for live explosives. Convinced he was witnessing the opening salvo of World War III, the captain angrily ordered his men to arm the sub’s lone nuclear-tipped torpedo and prepare for attack.
His colleagues however refused... It required all 3 senior officers to authorize the launch a nuclear armed torpedo. Instead they waited for the captain to calm down and surfaced the submarine to await further orders from Moscow.
I think this highlights both the human element involved in the decision making and also the difficulty a rogue element would have to deal with.
Brave and intelligent men.
Don't you think that it is time that we packed in the economic sanctions against Russia.
1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
skyrover said:
I think it's a bit demeaning to the individuals involved to discount their difficult diplomacy and decision making as luck.
Lets take the Soviet B-59 Submarine Incident for example...
On October 27, 1962, at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the American destroyer USS Beale began dropping depth charges on the nuclear-armed Soviet submarine B-59, which was lurking near the U.S. blockade line around Cuba. The charges were non-lethal warning shots intended to force B-59 to the surface, but the submarine’s captain mistook them for live explosives. Convinced he was witnessing the opening salvo of World War III, the captain angrily ordered his men to arm the sub’s lone nuclear-tipped torpedo and prepare for attack.
His colleagues however refused... It required all 3 senior officers to authorize the launch a nuclear armed torpedo. Instead they waited for the captain to calm down and surfaced the submarine to await further orders from Moscow.
I think this highlights both the human element involved in the decision making and also the difficulty a rogue element would have to deal with.
Brave and intelligent men.
hah, and what if other two officers were also "nervous" and possibly drunk?! Nuclear weapons are NOT toys, they could be used without global consequences only against opponent who doesn't have them (like US did with Japan).Lets take the Soviet B-59 Submarine Incident for example...
On October 27, 1962, at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the American destroyer USS Beale began dropping depth charges on the nuclear-armed Soviet submarine B-59, which was lurking near the U.S. blockade line around Cuba. The charges were non-lethal warning shots intended to force B-59 to the surface, but the submarine’s captain mistook them for live explosives. Convinced he was witnessing the opening salvo of World War III, the captain angrily ordered his men to arm the sub’s lone nuclear-tipped torpedo and prepare for attack.
His colleagues however refused... It required all 3 senior officers to authorize the launch a nuclear armed torpedo. Instead they waited for the captain to calm down and surfaced the submarine to await further orders from Moscow.
I think this highlights both the human element involved in the decision making and also the difficulty a rogue element would have to deal with.
Brave and intelligent men.
cardigankid said:
Don't you think that it is time that we packed in the economic sanctions against Russia.
1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
1. It was Russian.... They gave it away, then it legitimately became Ukrainian.1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
2. Some parts of the UK are dominated by Pakistanis or poles, should we recognise their right....
3. The EU and NATO didn't threaten anyone. Ukraine decided that they wanted to join the EU more than they wanted to be drained by vampiric Russian leaning leaders.
4. Looks like it's hurting Russia massively more than anyone else.
[quote=Liokault]
1. It was Russian.... They gave it away, then it legitimately became Ukrainian[quote]
they gave it away never thinking about possible secession of Ukraine from USSR, Crimea is strategically very important for Moscow
Ukraine rented it to Russia for years but they were afraid this new prowestern government could stop the renting and they had to act to protect their base.
1. It was Russian.... They gave it away, then it legitimately became Ukrainian[quote]
they gave it away never thinking about possible secession of Ukraine from USSR, Crimea is strategically very important for Moscow
Ukraine rented it to Russia for years but they were afraid this new prowestern government could stop the renting and they had to act to protect their base.
Liokault said:
cardigankid said:
Don't you think that it is time that we packed in the economic sanctions against Russia.
1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
1. It was Russian.... They gave it away, then it legitimately became Ukrainian.1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
2. Some parts of the UK are dominated by Pakistanis or poles, should we recognise their right....
3. The EU and NATO didn't threaten anyone. Ukraine decided that they wanted to join the EU more than they wanted to be drained by vampiric Russian leaning leaders.
4. Looks like it's hurting Russia massively more than anyone else.
2. maybe... we live in a democracy so if they voted appropriately they could achieve that eventually.
3. Given reports to the contrary, I think it's reasonable to say that either the USA/Europe, or Russia, could have triggered this string of events.
4. Stock market down. Ruble down. But internally at least the Russian people seem fairly content to live with these consequences. Can the same be said for the leveraged debt mountain in the USA that will unravel when all their expensive shale oil producers go kaput? It makes you wonder if Saudi Arabia and OPEC are really doing this 'for' the USA, or doing it to stop the USA eroding their market share with their shale oil, and entire raison d'être on the global scene.
But really, if the USA does nothing, it's a red flag to a bull to Russia... and vice versa.
This is why both sides are being full retard, and both need to be b
h slapped by the UK, Europe and China, imo.Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Liokault said:
cardigankid said:
Don't you think that it is time that we packed in the economic sanctions against Russia.
1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
1. It was Russian.... They gave it away, then it legitimately became Ukrainian.1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
2. Some parts of the UK are dominated by Pakistanis or poles, should we recognise their right....
3. The EU and NATO didn't threaten anyone. Ukraine decided that they wanted to join the EU more than they wanted to be drained by vampiric Russian leaning leaders.
4. Looks like it's hurting Russia massively more than anyone else.
Dave
Liokault said:
Mr Whippy said:
Liokault said:
cardigankid said:
Don't you think that it is time that we packed in the economic sanctions against Russia.
1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
1. It was Russian.... They gave it away, then it legitimately became Ukrainian.1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
2. Some parts of the UK are dominated by Pakistanis or poles, should we recognise their right....
3. The EU and NATO didn't threaten anyone. Ukraine decided that they wanted to join the EU more than they wanted to be drained by vampiric Russian leaning leaders.
4. Looks like it's hurting Russia massively more than anyone else.
Dave
Are the majority starving to death? On the streets homeless? Out of work? Struggling to pay their personal debts?
Everyone complains. Most people I know don't like the state of the economy in the UK, and never have done. People always want more, more so in the West.
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Liokault said:
Mr Whippy said:
Liokault said:
cardigankid said:
Don't you think that it is time that we packed in the economic sanctions against Russia.
1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
1. It was Russian.... They gave it away, then it legitimately became Ukrainian.1. The Crimea is and was Russian
2. Some parts of the Ukraine are massively Russian dominated and would, democratically, vote to join Russia if allowed to do so.
3. The EU and NATO should not be threatening Russia's security
4. It is going to hurt us as much as it hurts them.
2. Some parts of the UK are dominated by Pakistanis or poles, should we recognise their right....
3. The EU and NATO didn't threaten anyone. Ukraine decided that they wanted to join the EU more than they wanted to be drained by vampiric Russian leaning leaders.
4. Looks like it's hurting Russia massively more than anyone else.
Dave
Are the majority starving to death? On the streets homeless? Out of work? Struggling to pay their personal debts?
Everyone complains. Most people I know don't like the state of the economy in the UK, and never have done. People always want more, more so in the West.
Dave
It's not looking good for Russia. I wonder what will happen when Putin is fully backed into a corner.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11297...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11297...
AreOut said:
Bluebarge said:
Without consequences to Russia?
Dear, oh dear, it's all about willy-waving with you guys isn't it?
not about me, I'm not the one pressing the red button, but the fact is Putin aside there might be some fed up general in nuclear command that will initiate the sequenceDear, oh dear, it's all about willy-waving with you guys isn't it?
and if that happens you can hang all those interconnections on your willy and wave them
Great strategy.
Or would be if there weren't at least 4 other powers with ICBMs.
There is MAD and mad, and I don't think Putin is mad. If he were, he wouldn't stay leader of Russia. So, put it away.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No, it really isn't.Dave, as usual you are conflating a number of issues to suit your agenda.
US youth unemployment is 12.8%. It's averaged 12.3% since 1955. There has been no significant increase. The UK unemployment rate is sub 7%. The Eurozone is in trouble because weaker economies are in an economic straitjacket imposed by Germany; they could easily leave the Euro or set up a "Euro-Sud" but the political will is currently lacking. Their problems are of their own making and are easily solved. despite those problems, they have dynamic economies and well-educated and innovative workforces because, in a democracy, people are free to think and create for themselves.
Contrast that with Russia, where corruption and organized crime (often officially organised or sanctioned) stifle innovation. The Russian economy still relies on digging stuff out of the ground and sending it down a pipeline. they don't even have the technical expertise to access the harder deposits themselves. The Russians are as clever as anyone on the planet, but their appalling system of government means that talent is either stifled or forced to leave.
There is no innovation in the US economy? Really??? Reflect for a moment where most of the World's R&D spending takes place. Not heard of Silicon Valley, NASA, MIT, Apple, Microsoft ???
Rising debt? yes, at the moment, but that's how you stimulate economies in a deflationary environment. Would you prefer to ne in the US/UK or the Eurozone right now? Russia has very little debt, but it has very little in the way of reserves, and no ability to attract foreign lenders, because its corrupt system of govt means it cannot be trusted in the same way as a democratic state.
US not a democracy because it has two main parties? Anyone can run for govt., anyone who runs for govt. is obliged to listen to the people; lobbyists may have some influence, but they only have one vote each - stop listening to the people and you get voted out. Russia? people who oppose Putin don't get airtime, campaigning journalists and political opponents get murdered, dissent is silenced. You think it's the same in the US??
Checks and balances and the CIA - who wrote the report condemning the CIA? Is that not a check? The govt. examining an arm of the govt.? Where are the investigations into the FSB? Who is checking what is happening in the Ukraine? Where are these checks and balances in the Russian system?
They are both equally bad and stupid - No, really not. The people may be no different, but those in positions of power, and govenment, they couldn't be more different.
dave, there's nothing wrong with being an idealist, but there is if it clouds your vision and leads you to paint pictures that are not consistent with the facts. Which is what you do.
I could talk about these things all day, but torture figures and they'll tell you whatever you want them to.
Official US figures will do nothing but tell people what they need to hear to think the music is still playing... just like official Russian numbers will tell you what you want to hear.
So I find it best to read Russian biased analysis of USA figures, and vice versa. Both sides seem like they have problems to me.
I just assumed that the USA must be morally righteous, because hey, they're the USA. They can only do good. I think that assumption is incorrect.
They only care about oil. All their wars during my entire adult life have revolved around oil. They even support one of the most totalitarian states in the world, Saudi Arabia, because they have oil and are aligned with them.
Russia on the other hand. All my adult life they just seem to have kept themselves to themselves in comparison to the World Police.
Dave
Official US figures will do nothing but tell people what they need to hear to think the music is still playing... just like official Russian numbers will tell you what you want to hear.
So I find it best to read Russian biased analysis of USA figures, and vice versa. Both sides seem like they have problems to me.
I just assumed that the USA must be morally righteous, because hey, they're the USA. They can only do good. I think that assumption is incorrect.
They only care about oil. All their wars during my entire adult life have revolved around oil. They even support one of the most totalitarian states in the world, Saudi Arabia, because they have oil and are aligned with them.
Russia on the other hand. All my adult life they just seem to have kept themselves to themselves in comparison to the World Police.
Dave
skyrover said:
Mr Whippy said:
Russia on the other hand. All my adult life they just seem to have kept themselves to themselves in comparison to the World Police.
Utter bks I'm afraidWhen was the last time the USA annexed a country?
And anyhow, if the USA are so righteous, why do they continue to support the Saudi totalitarian state? From what I see the CIA even help them maintain their position of dictatorship, rather than let a democratic revolution occur.
It seems the USA just do what they like. Supported democracy for some, supported totalitarian dictatorship for others.
Nice.
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