War with Russia

[QuantumTokoloshi]

The The

Bluebarge said:

So, fix your democracy, root out corruption, establish the rule of law, alow a free press and Russia may realise its potential and take a genuine position of influence on the World stage.

The Great Game is still being played as vigorously as ever, except the world has forgotten it due to the US hegemony in the last 30 years. The USA and Europe are now being pressed on the World stage by the bric nations and that is not how the game should be played.

Root out corruption? Does that include examples like the UK weapons deal with Saudi? Let's no investigate that, national security you know. Weapons deal with South Africa? Let's not investigate that, national security you know. Sound familiar?

Russia is no utopia and outside of Moscow is a third world nation. Putin is a de facto billionaire dictator but then the USA is starting to look like a dynastic pseudo democracy, Bush then Clinton then Bush, then Obama and now Bush or Clinton. A little concentration of power it seems? Democracy is not served when the choice is rigged.

Need a little torture? The CIA can show you how, "the school of the Americas"had a great syllabus in enhanced interrogation techniques. That is okay because it is democratic freedom torture. The Brazilian president enjoyed some freedom torture from graduates of that particular institution.

Free press? Heard of a D notice? The wonderful UK democracy, how many of the house of Lords are elected? How many are there simply because of a birth right? Or are a particular Sky fairy fan?

This moral high ground that taken on Russia may not be as high as the proponents like to think.

I do not want another prime minister going to war in my name.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Thursday 18th December 18:36

[toppstuff]

Mr Whippy said:

I'm just saying they're both as bad as each other in this war (hot, cold, economic, willy waving, whatever), and all the others that have gone before.

The US is essentially a product of its people. Presidents can ( and often are ) stopped from doing what they want. Their power is not absolute. And they get thrown out every 5 years. The entire staff that surround them also get thrown out too. Even if they get reelected, they are prevented by a constitution from being in charge for more than 2 terms.

This is not the case with Russia. Giving them equal billing in the "bad guy" stakes is nonsense IMO. There is no comparison. It is absurd to think otherwise.

[skyrover]

Journalists being arrested in Moscow after Putin's press conference for not asking "approved questions"

[NRS]

Bluebarge said:

Sure, but try living in the here and now my friend.

The problem with you chaps is that you can't see that the world has moved on since WW2, and that talk of "spheres of influence", "national destiny" and all that crap is old hat. You're still trying to play "The Great Game" when the rest of the World has moved on. It's Trade and Ideas that brings influence my friend, not guns.

The US and quite a lot of Europe don't follow your views. Many conflicts recently have involved us in other countries. So that statement is pretty silly. Spheres of influence is also being played - NATO, EU etc etc. There's nothing new under the sun, just it's being played out in a way that makes it look a bit nicer.

[superkartracer]

Thing is the Russians are very very tough people , the yanks are not... they are weak and more concerned about fake teeth and tans, maybe they will get the war they're after.

[Octoposse]

Bluebarge said:

You're still trying to play "The Great Game" when the rest of the World has moved on. It's Trade and Ideas that brings influence my friend, not guns.

Except . . . the US and EU, at great expense, made damn sure that there was regime change in Ukraine when the democratically elected government tried to sign a one of your beloved trade deals with the 'wrong' people . . .

[Octoposse]

superkartracer said:

Thing is the Russians are very very tough people , the yanks are not... they are weak and more concerned about fake teeth and tans, maybe they will get the war they're after.

Quite so - and trying to trash the Russian economy as payback for applying the Kosovo precedent to Crimea is pretty close to an act of war. Calling in Saudi et al favours to depress the price of oil certainly quite an escalation - also rather depressing when one wonders what favours they could have called in instead: say, cutting sponsorship of Wahhabism perhaps . . .

Push Moscow too far and they'll fight, just not the sort of war we want them to fight. Give me a budget of $5 million, a free hand, and I'll have oil at $200 a barrel by March . . .

[anonymous-user]

Bluebarge said:

.

. It's Trade and Ideas that brings influence my friend, not guns. ......

Saddam had ideas about trade, about not trading oil in USD. Look where his ideas on trade got him.

What you forget is the nations that are on the rise are doing so through trade and enterprise, not through sabre rattling. And what does the US do in response to China's economic gains? Sends its military to the Pacific. They see an enemy in those that challenge their commercial influence. It reminds me very much of the British in the 19th Century.
I believe the US will seek to destabilise their rivals and the nations in which they compete for resources, they intend to weaken their rivals and keep the serf nations under control. None of this through good old trade and ideas.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

skyrover said:

Journalists being arrested in Moscow after Putin's press conference for not asking "approved questions"

6 us journalists arrested over coverage of Ferguson riots. They must have asked the wrong questions too.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-jour...

How dare those Russians do that, democracy and freedom by our rules
Of course.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Thursday 18th December 21:38

[toppstuff]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

skyrover said:

Journalists being arrested in Moscow after Putin's press conference for not asking "approved questions"

6 us journalists arrested over coverage of Ferguson riots. They must have asked the wrong questions too.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-jour...

How dare those Russians do that, democracy and freedom by our rules
Of course.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Thursday 18th December 21:38

You have a strange, rose-tinted perspective of Russia, you really do. Equally, your perspective of the US is skewed as well. You've been reading too much John Pilger.

The US is not perfect, but that country is a light year away from Russia in terms of operating a society where freedom of expression is a given right.

[toppstuff]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

skyrover said:

Journalists being arrested in Moscow after Putin's press conference for not asking "approved questions"

6 us journalists arrested over coverage of Ferguson riots. They must have asked the wrong questions too.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-jour...

How dare those Russians do that, democracy and freedom by our rules
Of course.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Thursday 18th December 21:38

I would add as well, that if the US steps over the line and incorrectly restricts the freedom of the press, the PEOPLE and the PRESS have the First Amendment of the US constitution on their side - they can use the force of the legal system to seek restitution.

Do Russian dissenters have the same constitutional rights? The hell they do...

[AreOut]

Bluebarge said:

You're right - that clinches it - photo of random building, taken at an angle, with two flags outside. You really think when spies visit they wave flags?

head office of SBU a random building? If you say so.

[hidetheelephants]

russian apologists said:

Waah, waah, waah; the glorious socialist workers' paradise has liberated the oppressed proletariat of Crimea and is working to achieve the same in the loyal state of Donetsk, but the septics aren't playing fair and it's not fair the wheels are coming off the economy.

Get a grip; a few months ago you were telling us how the US was a broken reed and would do nothing about Putin's actions in Crimea and Ukraine, now it's

moaning minnies said:

So unfair! It'll be nukes next and it'll be Obama's fault!!!11one!!1

[alfaman]

toppstuff said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

skyrover said:

Journalists being arrested in Moscow after Putin's press conference for not asking "approved questions"

6 us journalists arrested over coverage of Ferguson riots. They must have asked the wrong questions too.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-jour...

How dare those Russians do that, democracy and freedom by our rules
Of course.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Thursday 18th December 21:38

You have a strange, rose-tinted perspective of Russia, you really do. Equally, your perspective of the US is skewed as well. You've been reading too much John Pilger.

The US is not perfect, but that country is a light year away from Russia in terms of operating a society where freedom of expression is a given right.

Not only that .. in Russia around 98-99% of people charged with an offense are convicted in a court of law !

There is NO such thing as a fair and independent judiciary and/or fair legal process... If Putin and his cronies want someone out of the way .. they can basically arrest, charge and jail ( OR KILL) anyone for just about anything .. chances of a fair trial/ fair process are NIL.

BIG difference to the US and EC !

[alfaman]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

skyrover said:

Journalists being arrested in Moscow after Putin's press conference for not asking "approved questions"

6 us journalists arrested over coverage of Ferguson riots. They must have asked the wrong questions too.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-jour...

How dare those Russians do that, democracy and freedom by our rules
Of course.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Thursday 18th December 21:38

your statement is rather misleading .. the US journos were released without charge.

Let's see what happens in Russia...

..try starting an anti Putin or anti Govt demo in Russia .. see how long it takes until you get the crap kicked out of you by the Police / FSB ... .. followed by some long gardening leave in Siberia

[Bluebarge]

AreOut said:

Bluebarge said:

You're right - that clinches it - photo of random building, taken at an angle, with two flags outside. You really think when spies visit they wave flags?

head office of SBU a random building? If you say so.

And the proof of that is?

When was the photo taken?

Context is everything my friend.

[Bluebarge]

Octoposse]i]Except . . . [/i said:

the US and EU, at great expense, made damn sure that there was regime change in Ukraine

Let's see the proof of that please.

Lots of wild conspiracy theories being portrayed on here as fact.

[Bluebarge]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Saddam had ideas about gassing his own people - that's what got him into trouble. No-one gives a sh*t what currency you sell your oil in - that's decided by the market, not the US State Dept.

Jeez, there are some proper "pencils up the nose" fruit loops on here.

[Bluebarge]

NRS said:

The US and quite a lot of Europe don't follow your views. Many conflicts recently have involved us in other countries. So that statement is pretty silly.

And those conflicts were invariably to prevent genocide being continued or WMD being used or developed. Many of them were UN-sanctioned. Some of them were bad mistakes. But none of them were an attempt to increase national territory or impose the rights of one ethnic minority over another.

So your statement is pretty silly.

And that's me done for this thread - far too many Dave Sparts, fantasists and totalitarian apologists on here for me.

[toppstuff]

Bluebarge said:

And that's me done for this thread - far too many Dave Sparts, fantasists and totalitarian apologists on here for me.

I must be said, the number of people here seemingly supportive of Russia's position is quite alarming. By any measure, Russia remains a country where democracy, freedom of speech and opportunity for the masses are all in short supply. The simple truth is that the apologists for Russia would absolutely hate living there under the conditions most of the Russian people are subjected to.

The anti-American nonsense is also ill-informed, ignorant and prejudiced. Now America has its problems, but regarding the US and Russia on equal footing in terms of fairness and accountability is so absurd it is laughable.