War with Russia
Discussion
scherzkeks said:
Platitudes and broad speculation aside, you are off topic again.
I thought there might be potential for a discussion with you, but I'll have to pass.
I have addressed the idiotic position you have made regarding the US, and tackled the silly attempts to score points with lame, incorrect statements about the US and trying to draw fake comparisons.I thought there might be potential for a discussion with you, but I'll have to pass.
I have then moved on to address your notion that Russia is subject to so-called 'aggression" that is unjustified in your view, simply by reflecting on the self-evident fact that Russia's problems are essentially the result of its treatment of its neighbours over the past 70 years and how those neighbours understandably turned their backs on Moscow in favour of a better life.
Russia's isolation and how they feel surrounded by nations who don't like them, is basically ignoring the simple truth that Russia's neighbours are not under their control anymore. And Russia does not like this fact.
Rather than ignore your points, I have answered them.
If you can't refute them, thats fair enough. But don't pretend they haven't been answered when they clearly have. Leaving the discussion with an attempt at a condescending repost, rather than a proper answer, is quite understandable given the poor material you have to work with. I get it - trying to adopt a pro-Russian position against logical fact-based reasoning is tough - but surely you can do better than you have so far?
toppstuff said:
scherzkeks said:
Platitudes and broad speculation aside, you are off topic again.
I thought there might be potential for a discussion with you, but I'll have to pass.
I have addressed the idiotic position you have made regarding the US, and tackled the silly attempts to score points with lame, incorrect statements about the US and trying to draw fake comparisons.I thought there might be potential for a discussion with you, but I'll have to pass.
I have then moved on to address your notion that Russia is subject to so-called 'aggression" that is unjustified in your view, simply by reflecting on the self-evident fact that Russia's problems are essentially the result of its treatment of its neighbours over the past 70 years and how those neighbours understandably turned their backs on Moscow in favour of a better life.
Russia's isolation and how they feel surrounded by nations who don't like them, is basically ignoring the simple truth that Russia's neighbours are not under their control anymore. And Russia does not like this fact.
Rather than ignore your points, I have answered them.
If you can't refute them, thats fair enough. But don't pretend they haven't been answered when they clearly have. Leaving the discussion with an attempt at a condescending repost, rather than a proper answer, is quite understandable given the poor material you have to work with. I get it - trying to adopt a pro-Russian position against logical fact-based reasoning is tough - but surely you can do better than you have so far?
Jimbeaux said:
I am afraid he cannot TS. Besides being an obvious narcissist, his arrogance equals his ignorance. He does exhibit the behavior consistent with individuals in their 20s who have not had time for experience to refine their humility. If he is older, then he is out of excuses.
Narcissistic arrogant ignorance is the worst kind. Must be a bummer to be that way. But of course those that are afflicted don't know they are. 
Coming on a forum to take a pro-Russian position is potentially a fun thing to do. I can remember having to adopt positions and defend them in classes at school. Its a shame he isn't better at it.
It is also surprising how people seem to choose to be wilfully ignorant of the constitution of the United States. The US ain't perfect, that is for sure, but a debate gets pretty stupid when people start pretending the first amendment does not exist, or attempt to draw comparisons with Russia.
I think some people are confusing criticism of the US and the west as validation of Russia and it's policies. It's not, it's just saying that we are not as good as people seem to be suggesting.
So your statement is pretty silly.
And that's me done for this thread - far too many Dave Sparts, fantasists and totalitarian apologists on here for me.IF they are doing it for these reasons why do they support other governments who are doing the same things? They support Saudi who effectively use other nationalities as slave labour (plus mistreat their own people). They supply Israel with weapons, including getting them to the point of nukes (answering the WMD point). What is the difference between Russia trying to get a Russian puppet government put in to help with trade and potentially some of the regime changes we have done? You don't have to hold the territory afterwards to be playing games of control. Those (or at least some of us) who are making points about the West are not suggesting Russia is better - I am happy to live here in Norway. It's just blaming it all on them is not really helpful either. And it's hypocritical that we say they can't do anything in other countries but we can.
Bluebarge said:
NRS said:
The US and quite a lot of Europe don't follow your views. Many conflicts recently have involved us in other countries. So that statement is pretty silly.
And those conflicts were invariably to prevent genocide being continued or WMD being used or developed. Many of them were UN-sanctioned. Some of them were bad mistakes. But none of them were an attempt to increase national territory or impose the rights of one ethnic minority over another.So your statement is pretty silly.
And that's me done for this thread - far too many Dave Sparts, fantasists and totalitarian apologists on here for me.
2013BRM said:
really? I believe there are some proper "pencils up the nose" fruit loops on here too actually
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/oct/06/oi...Quit with the insults. And take the pencils out of your ears.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not the first time that story came up. Its been recycled so many times. I recall the last time it surfaced, there was a conspiracy theory suggesting that the Dinar become the oil currency. It never happened and it won't happen.
As long as the US is the worlds largest consumer, the USD will rule. Nothing will change in this respect in our lifetimes.
Nobody said it will change.
What I find silly is people will throw insults around when anyone suggests that the dollar having absolute monopoly on oil trading actually benefits the USA, and that they'd just let anyone try to change that.
Dollar as oil currency gives the US power, it's that simple. Think about dollar currency pegging, dollar reserves, currency speculation and currency attacks. Oil dollars make the dollar relevant, make it important, help it retain reserve status, make it unwise to pick a fight with the dollar.
How can the Americans attempt to prevent rivals trying to set up alternatives through trade and ideas?
Answer is they can't. Force is the only option available.
What I find silly is people will throw insults around when anyone suggests that the dollar having absolute monopoly on oil trading actually benefits the USA, and that they'd just let anyone try to change that.
Dollar as oil currency gives the US power, it's that simple. Think about dollar currency pegging, dollar reserves, currency speculation and currency attacks. Oil dollars make the dollar relevant, make it important, help it retain reserve status, make it unwise to pick a fight with the dollar.
How can the Americans attempt to prevent rivals trying to set up alternatives through trade and ideas?
Answer is they can't. Force is the only option available.
toppstuff said:
Jimbeaux said:
I am afraid he cannot TS. Besides being an obvious narcissist, his arrogance equals his ignorance. He does exhibit the behavior consistent with individuals in their 20s who have not had time for experience to refine their humility. If he is older, then he is out of excuses.
Narcissistic arrogant ignorance is the worst kind. Must be a bummer to be that way. But of course those that are afflicted don't know they are. Coming on a forum to take a pro-Russian position is potentially a fun thing to do. I can remember having to adopt positions and defend them in classes at school. Its a shame he isn't better at it.
It is also surprising how people seem to choose to be wilfully ignorant of the constitution of the United States. The US ain't perfect, that is for sure, but a debate gets pretty stupid when people start pretending the first amendment does not exist, or attempt to draw comparisons with Russia.
We certainly are not perfect; it is just so tiresome to hear someone drone on thread after thread about how unrealistically bad we are compared to the place that not only let him in but, by his tone, must deem his services indispensable.
Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 19th December 19:23
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It isn't really a sensible question though.The US is the largest consumer of oil by quite a large margin.
The US is also the largest consumer of anything else on the planet.
Unless this changes dramatically, the USD will be the dominant currency. It will remain the base currency for oil transactions simply because they use more of it than anyone else and the global exchange of USD is of such a vast scale that changing it is never going to happen. There is no reason to change. No logical reason at all.
toppstuff said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
skyrover said:
Journalists being arrested in Moscow after Putin's press conference for not asking "approved questions"
6 us journalists arrested over coverage of Ferguson riots. They must have asked the wrong questions too.http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-jour...
How dare those Russians do that, democracy and freedom by our rules
Of course.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Thursday 18th December 21:38
The US is not perfect, but that country is a light year away from Russia in terms of operating a society where freedom of expression is a given right.
My issue is the imposition of our values on other countries, Russia is not Europe, the mentality and society does not want to be European they want to be Russian. We are imposing our norms and societal values on another country, if military force is not possible to bring them to heel then strangle them economically until you get a more compliant leadership.
What is good for Europe and the North America does not mean, that is what other countries want or need. The galling part for many nations is the selective imposition of those values, Bahrain can shoot and imprison democracy protestors, even prosecute doctors for aiding the injured protestors, Saudi can export and fund terrorists all over the world but barely a word is uttered. So much for "free" mainstream press.
Russians recognise how badly they were treated after the fall of communism, economically treated like a petri dish to test out various economic theories, they suffered under incompetent, weak willed and vodka infused leadership and Putin is certainly none of the above. Putin methods and attitude might not gel with Western values, but then why should it. Our way is not the only path, ask Singapore, democracy is not the answer to every question in the short or medium term. Mustafa K Atatürk recognised that a country needs to be ready for democracy and wrote extensively about it, and he had to balance the fall of an empire and the whole religion issue in Turkey.
Europe and the USA are pushing in Ukraine, having aided the overthrown of a democratic government and Putin is now pushing back, how hard he pushes back remains to be seen. The Russian slow down is already hitting the UK, ask the workers at Nissan Sunderland, with a substantial drop in output because of the fall in Russian demand, AUDI and Merc are in the same situation. The entire production of AMG G55s seem to be in Moscow, so this will hurt the car manufacturers.
Russians are stubborn and proud, and I can see Putin hitting back. This is not just about Russia now, this also includes the Brics nations. China is starting to flex its muscle internationally and so is Russia, the world order is changing, the equilibrium of the last 30 years is now moving and how nations respond to it will determine if things turn nasty.
We are seeing a change in the geopolitics of the world, similar to the 1900 - 1945 period, hopefully it will be less bloody.
As an aside, was talking to a colleague who grew up in Siberia, for him, -45 degrees was the important temperature growing up, because schools are then closed, not -44, but -45 !
He use to walk a few Km to school in winter. Freaking crazy.Goldman Sachs view on 2015 and Russia
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-19/annotated...
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Saturday 20th December 19:15
NRS said:
I think some people are confusing criticism of the US and the west as validation of Russia and it's policies. It's not, it's just saying that we are not as good as people seem to be suggesting.
So your statement is pretty silly.
And that's me done for this thread - far too many Dave Sparts, fantasists and totalitarian apologists on here for me.IF they are doing it for these reasons why do they support other governments who are doing the same things? They support Saudi who effectively use other nationalities as slave labour (plus mistreat their own people). They supply Israel with weapons, including getting them to the point of nukes (answering the WMD point). What is the difference between Russia trying to get a Russian puppet government put in to help with trade and potentially some of the regime changes we have done? You don't have to hold the territory afterwards to be playing games of control. Those (or at least some of us) who are making points about the West are not suggesting Russia is better - I am happy to live here in Norway. It's just blaming it all on them is not really helpful either. And it's hypocritical that we say they can't do anything in other countries but we can.
Hi NRS,Bluebarge said:
NRS said:
The US and quite a lot of Europe don't follow your views. Many conflicts recently have involved us in other countries. So that statement is pretty silly.
And those conflicts were invariably to prevent genocide being continued or WMD being used or developed. Many of them were UN-sanctioned. Some of them were bad mistakes. But none of them were an attempt to increase national territory or impose the rights of one ethnic minority over another.So your statement is pretty silly.
And that's me done for this thread - far too many Dave Sparts, fantasists and totalitarian apologists on here for me.
I feel you've made some generalizations re the Saudi's. Despite what the UK's Daily Mail Or Mirror may have you believe not all servants are treated like slaves and have fully paid for vacations back home to see family once a year or every two years.
In Kuwait, the situation is even better as they fairly recently increase the days off from one to two per week. I met one Indian in Kuwait City who went home for two months, all expenses paid once every two years and had lived, with his wife & kids in the same family home for the past 37 years. His curry was the best!
Saudi does still chop hands off, but this is rarely if ever for the first offence of theft. However, when it does happen the thieving normally ceases.
Saudi parents who send their sons & daughters abroad for education including uni have all expenses paid by the state, this includes accommodation, private medical & dental care (I've been at London's Cromwell Hospital with them). On top of this they each receive a monthly allowance. The Qatari's being the best served in this department with up to $10K USD per month per person (gas money).
So, we may not agree with how their kingdoms came into being or how they run the country - but it ain't all bad. Iran does of course try and stir things up in Saudi's eastern region and also in Kuwait but hey ho, we have the BNP.
Phil
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Another (different) Sachs http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04v4sxb "The Shadow of the Cold War", 15 minutes long, the reach of politicians is long. Congress of Vienna has a lot to answer for.I have a deep mistrust of economists, they are the arch-dabblers.
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