War with Russia

[Jimbeaux]

NRS said:

skyrover said:

NRS said:

What would the US do if one of it's naval bases was at risk of being cut off,

It would leave...

The difference being that most countries with US military presence want them to stay due to, economic, security and political concerns.

Would the US leave Diego Garcia if the UK asked them?

Probably... but would we ever do that?

It depends who it was, and where it was in the world. There has been quite a few places the US supports despite human right abuses etc. to maintain a military position in the area.

For those complaining about the intervention of Russia, this map shows where the US is involved. Glad to see we avoid interfering in other countries! Those pesky Russians!



Again, I am not saying Russia is right in what they have done, but again the US and the West are just being hypocritical in what we are blaming them for.

The U.S. pays to be in those places. Nations compete to have bases. A little different TBH.

[Jimbeaux]

Mr Whippy said:

Only a week or so ago the USA had Obama talking out loud for all to hear about how they'd act on NK's hacking of Sony, they had evidence. Well the FBI did.

Then it was Russia for a few days. Again, there was evidence.


And now it's apparently a disgruntled employee/s, like people were saying a month or two ago when the hack first happened.



The USA just seems to have a problem with any country that won't align with them. Join us or be economically, militarily, or politically nullified, while they tell their people about all these 'enemies' of the USA to justify their actions.

They're warmongers full stop. Being aligned with them makes me sick.



I truly hope Russia and China's relationship is strengthening and that there becomes an alternative to the US petrodollar, and USD reserve currency.

Now, I expect the USA will do everything it can to stop this, like ultimately taking us all to war over their uber wealth holders egos and greed, to protect the flawed and morally empty 'western' way of life for our apparent benefit.

But wouldn't the world be a better place with many world powers, rather than one world power as the USA would like?

Dave

Very strange outlook there IMO. Firstly, the FBI restated that it was not a disgruntled employee hacking Sony, so unless you have better evidence than the FBI, you may wish to quell that for now. As to wishing Russia and China would meld and be an "alternative", well, most sane people know better than to wish for that. Warmongers? Sick of being allied? Get real. We do, as all nations, what is in our best interests. If you think for one damn second that China and Russia would not do worse for their self interests, then you are deluded. Would you then be "sick to be allied" with them as well???

[Jimbeaux]

toppstuff said:

Mr Whippy said:

I truly hope Russia and China's relationship is strengthening and that there becomes an alternative to the US petrodollar, and USD reserve currency.

Now, I expect the USA will do everything it can to stop this, like ultimately taking us all to war over their uber wealth holders egos and greed, to protect the flawed and morally empty 'western' way of life for our apparent benefit.

But wouldn't the world be a better place with many world powers, rather than one world power as the USA would like?

Dave

You have an odd perspective of the world IMO.

For all of its problems and grave errors, the US, IMO generally correct itself for the simple reason that they are constitutionally designed to not have despotic dictators in charge. I take comfort from the fact that the US has an effective two house system that can and does stop administrations from going too far, most of the time. The Iraq war was a mistake with all that WMD nonsense, but that resulted in a new President that simply took the US out of Iraq.

While hardly a consolation, the US is still a better option than having autocratic nutters like Putin being able to do what they like with zero accountability, or any means to remove them.

I disagree with every single part of your post. It is hysterical, lazy, Guardianesque nonsense without any substance. If you truly hope that autocrats and dictators grow in power to challenge western values, then you are living in the wrong part of the world or, alternatively, you are deluded about the simple realities of living under autocratic rule.

I am sure a few months living on the average income in China or Russia would lift the rose-tinted veil from your vision.

Well stated; how can someone be that off? Hoping dictatorships improve their grip on power is very naive.

[Jimbeaux]

toppstuff said:

There is too much hand-wringing and liberal self loathing going on here from some of you.

This sums up the majority of the issue, right there. I suppose the time will come when you lot are fighting or kotowing to China for your oil or rare metals from the Africa they will control. I really hope that fate is avoided.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 30th December 15:28

[NRS]

Jimbeaux said:

Very strange outlook there IMO. Firstly, the FBI restated that it was not a disgruntled employee hacking Sony, so unless you have better evidence than the FBI, you may wish to quell that for now. As to wishing Russia and China would meld and be an "alternative", well, most sane people know better than to wish for that. Warmongers? Sick of being allied? Get real. We do, as all nations, what is in our best interests. If you think for one damn second that China and Russia would not do worse for their self interests, then you are deluded. Would you then be "sick to be allied" with them as well???

And that comes to the crux of the argument for a lot of people. We complain about Russia doing their thing to keep alive their interests, and yet it's ok and different when we do so? I notice no one replied to the last 2 posts of mine either...

[Jimbeaux]

NRS said:

Jimbeaux said:

Very strange outlook there IMO. Firstly, the FBI restated that it was not a disgruntled employee hacking Sony, so unless you have better evidence than the FBI, you may wish to quell that for now. As to wishing Russia and China would meld and be an "alternative", well, most sane people know better than to wish for that. Warmongers? Sick of being allied? Get real. We do, as all nations, what is in our best interests. If you think for one damn second that China and Russia would not do worse for their self interests, then you are deluded. Would you then be "sick to be allied" with them as well???

And that comes to the crux of the argument for a lot of people. We complain about Russia doing their thing to keep alive their interests, and yet it's ok and different when we do so? I notice no one replied to the last 2 posts of mine either...

It is a geopolitical chess game, always has been. We need to stop worrying about who is or is not a hypocrite and do what is good for ourselves and our allies. That is how things work, the faster that is realized the less we will have to sit here having philosophical conversations while wringing our hands in inner struggle.

[NRS]

Jimbeaux said:

It is a geopolitical chess game, always has been. We need to stop worrying about who is or is not a hypocrite and do what is good for ourselves and our allies. That is how things work, the faster that is realized the less we will have to sit here having philosophical conversations while wringing our hands in inner struggle.

Fair enough, I respect you saying that. It's just a lot of other people seem to treat us as "right" and them as "bad". When both sides are similar to each other - as you said it's just a big power and money game.

[Jimbeaux]

NRS said:

Jimbeaux said:

It is a geopolitical chess game, always has been. We need to stop worrying about who is or is not a hypocrite and do what is good for ourselves and our allies. That is how things work, the faster that is realized the less we will have to sit here having philosophical conversations while wringing our hands in inner struggle.

Fair enough, I respect you saying that. It's just a lot of other people seem to treat us as "right" and them as "bad". When both sides are similar to each other - as you said it's just a big power and money game.

Agreed. People may be better served pushing the moral argument within the Polis, the Polis that is secured by a very cutthroat geo-political reality.

[hidetheelephants]

Mr Whippy said:

As for Iraq, isn't Obama putting more and more military hardware in Kuwait at the moment?

Give it a few months to six months and I expect there will be reports about ISIS terrorism and they'll have a large land force in Iraq again... no doubt then 'reports' will come out about how Iran is supporting ISIS, and that will allow escalations with Russia over Iran's role in the region... with a huge land army ready to pressure Iran from Iraq.
This will probably happen in time for the Saudis to start reducing oil production, and the conflict will help drive Putin under more pressure, and help push oil prices back to where they were.

If the hardware wasn't in Kuwait it would be on USNS ships at Diego Garcia; out of sight but only 6 days steaming away.

[hidetheelephants]

toppstuff said:

The only oddity in all of this is Africa. That place is chocked with enough resources and people to destabilise things in the future, if the rest of the world ever gets to depend on that continent.

Right now the world is getting by without Africa, but in time we are going to need their stuff to keep going. Politically, the place is a shambles. So this is likely to be the focus for problems in the future IMO, probably in the next generation and beyond.

Given that, for example, China now "owns" parts of the African bits that matter, I wonder how far China would go to defend these interests a few years down the line when they become more strategically and politically important?

We do depend on raw materials from Africa; the world's mobile phones and other electronics cannot be made without platinum group metals, a significant share is supplied from africa and of that a chunk is used to fund a variety of wars, perpetuating the shambles.

[NRS]

hidetheelephants said:

We do depend on raw materials from Africa; the world's mobile phones and other electronics cannot be made without platinum group metals, a significant share is supplied from africa and of that a chunk is used to fund a variety of wars, perpetuating the shambles.

Darn those nasty Russians, interfering everywhere!

[hidetheelephants]

NRS said:

Darn those nasty Russians, interfering everywhere!

The russians buy as much electronic crap as we do, and supply a significant portion of the arms used as they are more competitive on price than H&K, so yes!

[AreOut]

toppstuff said:

This makes no sense. No sense at all.

The simple fact is that all of the countries which have US presence in some way, do so out of choice.

hah, the same way a shop owner pays the "fee" to the local mafia guy out of choice

[Liokault]

AreOut said:

toppstuff said:

This makes no sense. No sense at all.

The simple fact is that all of the countries which have US presence in some way, do so out of choice.

hah, the same way a shop owner pays the "fee" to the local mafia guy out of choice

So, can we start a vote her?

Question: I will feel better when the USA steps away world politics (ala China pre 1970's) and let A Russia/China coalition take the lead role of World Police.

Answer yes/no

[AreOut]

huh, USA wouldn't lose its world role if they "lose" Ukraine to Russia... sometimes there is just too much

[Mr Whippy]

Jimbeaux said:

toppstuff said:

Mr Whippy said:

I truly hope Russia and China's relationship is strengthening and that there becomes an alternative to the US petrodollar, and USD reserve currency.

Now, I expect the USA will do everything it can to stop this, like ultimately taking us all to war over their uber wealth holders egos and greed, to protect the flawed and morally empty 'western' way of life for our apparent benefit.

But wouldn't the world be a better place with many world powers, rather than one world power as the USA would like?

Dave

You have an odd perspective of the world IMO.

For all of its problems and grave errors, the US, IMO generally correct itself for the simple reason that they are constitutionally designed to not have despotic dictators in charge. I take comfort from the fact that the US has an effective two house system that can and does stop administrations from going too far, most of the time. The Iraq war was a mistake with all that WMD nonsense, but that resulted in a new President that simply took the US out of Iraq.

While hardly a consolation, the US is still a better option than having autocratic nutters like Putin being able to do what they like with zero accountability, or any means to remove them.

I disagree with every single part of your post. It is hysterical, lazy, Guardianesque nonsense without any substance. If you truly hope that autocrats and dictators grow in power to challenge western values, then you are living in the wrong part of the world or, alternatively, you are deluded about the simple realities of living under autocratic rule.

I am sure a few months living on the average income in China or Russia would lift the rose-tinted veil from your vision.

Well stated; how can someone be that off? Hoping dictatorships improve their grip on power is very naive.

And the constant removal of freedoms and liberties from the normal person under the flag of improving safety from the evil of the world, isn't a movement towards living in your own dictatorship in the USA?

George Orwell would be astonished that his bleak vision of the future would be born in the 'free' USA.

Once again, I'm not saying Russia and China are great. I'm just saying the USA are as bad as them, or possibly worse.

[Mr Whippy]

Jimbeaux said:

Firstly, the FBI restated that it was not a disgruntled employee hacking Sony, so unless you have better evidence than the FBI, you may wish to quell that for now. As to wishing Russia and China would meld and be an "alternative", well, most sane people know better than to wish for that. Warmongers? Sick of being allied? Get real. We do, as all nations, what is in our best interests. If you think for one damn second that China and Russia would not do worse for their self interests, then you are deluded. Would you then be "sick to be allied" with them as well???

http://nypost.com/2014/12/30/new-evidence-sony-hack-was-inside-job-cyber-experts/

And lets not forget this is the USA that blew up Iraq because of non-existent WMDs.

And wanted to invade Syria because Assad chem attacked his people, despite not doing so.

How many times do you need to be lied to, or misled, to start to question what you are told by officials?


Wasn't the entire point of the Sony hack originally to show the bad practice by a corporate monster which is Sony? There is motive behind ex employees, and the stupid crap film which has now been hyped up wasn't even mentioned for weeks after the hack, or by the hackers initially or for weeks since.

Jeez, did the originally hackers even send the bomb threats about the film? Given Sony's history in ethical issues recently I wouldn't be surprised to find they threatened themselves to get their naff film some revenue and free press.


The USA just seems to lie and mislead it's people for it's own ends.


And yes, nations doing what they need to do for their best interests is great. That is commendable. But what have they done in the last 20 years that was in any common American's best interests?


Dave

[skyrover]

Mr Whippy said:

The USA just seems to lie and mislead it's people for it's own ends.

Dave

All government's are this way... you are naive to think otherwise. Thus is the importance of a free press and the ability for reasoned debate.

Of course the US is not perfect, name one country that gets it right... but to put the US, China and Russia all into the same category?

One thing the US has in it's favor... it's nice to be able to sleep at night without worrying you will be eating polonium for breakfast.

[Mr Whippy]

skyrover said:

Mr Whippy said:

The USA just seems to lie and mislead it's people for it's own ends.

Dave

All government's are this way... you are naive to think otherwise. Thus is the importance of a free press and the ability for reasoned debate.

Of course the US is not perfect, name one country that gets it right... but to put the US, China and Russia all into the same category?

One thing the US has in it's favor... it's nice to be able to sleep at night without worrying you will be eating polonium for breakfast.

Well I thought the USA had a government that was representative of it's people's needs?

Not the needs and whims of a few.


I just see countries like China at least investing in infrastructure everyone can benefit from. Where in the USA are the billions and trillions in investment liabilities on infrastructure?
What is the USA doing to justify it's debt to the future generations?



I for one used to think the sun shone out of the USA's bottom. But that view has changed and continues to change the more I hear about how they're flushing their great legacy down the pan for profit skimming (or just gouging increasingly) corporate greed... a fleeting thing which will end in tears.

I just wonder what beast will come out of the other side.

The irony that they fought against socialism through the cold war and they're ending up going down that same road.

Dave

[scherzkeks]

Mr Whippy said:

Once again, I'm not saying Russia and China are great.

I find it comical that this even needs to be stated (repeatedly no less). An effort to ward off another incoherent monologue from Toppstuff et al. no doubt.