War with Russia

[Jimbeaux]

Mr Whippy said:

Jimbeaux said:

Firstly, the FBI restated that it was not a disgruntled employee hacking Sony, so unless you have better evidence than the FBI, you may wish to quell that for now. As to wishing Russia and China would meld and be an "alternative", well, most sane people know better than to wish for that. Warmongers? Sick of being allied? Get real. We do, as all nations, what is in our best interests. If you think for one damn second that China and Russia would not do worse for their self interests, then you are deluded. Would you then be "sick to be allied" with them as well???

http://nypost.com/2014/12/30/new-evidence-sony-hack-was-inside-job-cyber-experts/

And lets not forget this is the USA that blew up Iraq because of non-existent WMDs.

And wanted to invade Syria because Assad chem attacked his people, despite not doing so.

How many times do you need to be lied to, or misled, to start to question what you are told by officials?


Wasn't the entire point of the Sony hack originally to show the bad practice by a corporate monster which is Sony? There is motive behind ex employees, and the stupid crap film which has now been hyped up wasn't even mentioned for weeks after the hack, or by the hackers initially or for weeks since.

Jeez, did the originally hackers even send the bomb threats about the film? Given Sony's history in ethical issues recently I wouldn't be surprised to find they threatened themselves to get their naff film some revenue and free press.


The USA just seems to lie and mislead it's people for it's own ends.


And yes, nations doing what they need to do for their best interests is great. That is commendable. But what have they done in the last 20 years that was in any common American's best interests?


Dave

You still believe a Sony employee did the hacking? Did you just blame us for almost attacking Syria, or something like that?

[Jimbeaux]

Mr Whippy said:

skyrover said:

Mr Whippy said:

The USA just seems to lie and mislead it's people for it's own ends.

Dave

All government's are this way... you are naive to think otherwise. Thus is the importance of a free press and the ability for reasoned debate.

Of course the US is not perfect, name one country that gets it right... but to put the US, China and Russia all into the same category?

One thing the US has in it's favor... it's nice to be able to sleep at night without worrying you will be eating polonium for breakfast.

Well I thought the USA had a government that was representative of it's people's needs?

Not the needs and whims of a few.


I just see countries like China at least investing in infrastructure everyone can benefit from. Where in the USA are the billions and trillions in investment liabilities on infrastructure?
What is the USA doing to justify it's debt to the future generations?



I for one used to think the sun shone out of the USA's bottom. But that view has changed and continues to change the more I hear about how they're flushing their great legacy down the pan for profit skimming (or just gouging increasingly) corporate greed... a fleeting thing which will end in tears.

I just wonder what beast will come out of the other side.

The irony that they fought against socialism through the cold war and they're ending up going down that same road.

Dave

Our current administration is definately of a socialist lean; however, the general view you are "seeing", what source supplies this to you for the most part?

[toppstuff]

Mr Whippy said:

And the constant removal of freedoms and liberties from the normal person under the flag of improving safety from the evil of the world, isn't a movement towards living in your own dictatorship in the USA?

George Orwell would be astonished that his bleak vision of the future would be born in the 'free' USA.

Once again, I'm not saying Russia and China are great. I'm just saying the USA are as bad as them, or possibly worse.

Piffle. You need a big, Costco can size of perspective, you do. Your view of the world is utterly skewed. You remind me of Father Ted with the "small and far away" gag, your understanding of perspective is so wrong.

There is simply no comparison at all, between what you see as the "removal of freedoms and liberties" in the US and the freedoms apparent in Russia and China. You would have to be either crazy or in dire need of a one way ticket to Vladivostock to believe so.

George Orwell would marvel at the freedoms still available to those in the West compared to those in the East. To suggest the "USA are as bad as them, or possibly worse" is ridiculous. If this was a pub conversation right now, everyone would be pointing and laughing at you.

( We could start with the obvious - this thread would not even be possible if we lived in China. Have a think on that...).

[toppstuff]

scherzkeks said:

Mr Whippy said:

Once again, I'm not saying Russia and China are great.

I find it comical that this even needs to be stated (repeatedly no less). An effort to ward off another incoherent monologue from Toppstuff et al. no doubt.

Coming from someone who can apparently defend autocratic despots I take that as a compliment.

[Mr Whippy]

toppstuff said:

There is simply no comparison at all, between what you see as the "removal of freedoms and liberties" in the US and the freedoms apparent in Russia and China. You would have to be either crazy or in dire need of a one way ticket to Vladivostock to believe so.

I'm not comparing and trying to choose a winner, or playing Nation Top Trumps.

Is this some kind of weird character trait that if you don't support one thing, you must by definition support the other?


The USA is removing freedoms and liberties, wealth gap widening, corporates taking on more power and controlling the direction of the future of the USA more than the common man, with little sign of stopping.

[NRS]

skyrover said:

One thing the US has in it's favor... it's nice to be able to sleep at night without worrying you will be eating polonium for breakfast.

Well, that really depends if you are western living in a western country. If you come from outside there, well, who knows what the US will do to you if you're in their way.

[Mr Whippy]

Jimbeaux said:

Mr Whippy said:

Jimbeaux said:

Firstly, the FBI restated that it was not a disgruntled employee hacking Sony, so unless you have better evidence than the FBI, you may wish to quell that for now. As to wishing Russia and China would meld and be an "alternative", well, most sane people know better than to wish for that. Warmongers? Sick of being allied? Get real. We do, as all nations, what is in our best interests. If you think for one damn second that China and Russia would not do worse for their self interests, then you are deluded. Would you then be "sick to be allied" with them as well???

http://nypost.com/2014/12/30/new-evidence-sony-hack-was-inside-job-cyber-experts/

And lets not forget this is the USA that blew up Iraq because of non-existent WMDs.

And wanted to invade Syria because Assad chem attacked his people, despite not doing so.

How many times do you need to be lied to, or misled, to start to question what you are told by officials?


Wasn't the entire point of the Sony hack originally to show the bad practice by a corporate monster which is Sony? There is motive behind ex employees, and the stupid crap film which has now been hyped up wasn't even mentioned for weeks after the hack, or by the hackers initially or for weeks since.

Jeez, did the originally hackers even send the bomb threats about the film? Given Sony's history in ethical issues recently I wouldn't be surprised to find they threatened themselves to get their naff film some revenue and free press.


The USA just seems to lie and mislead it's people for it's own ends.


And yes, nations doing what they need to do for their best interests is great. That is commendable. But what have they done in the last 20 years that was in any common American's best interests?


Dave

You still believe a Sony employee did the hacking?

I don't think NK hacked Sony because of a film that parodied the NK leader, no.


Read around on the internet and it's pretty clear there is a mountain of evidence pointing towards employees with grudges and other groups unhappy with the way Sony moves in the world of internets and multimedia, employment, equality, and a mountain of other things the original hack brought to light in the original hack news stories.

If you want sources for any of these amazing insights, try any media outlet that isn't attached to some large corporate USA machine.

Dave

[Jimbeaux]

Mr Whippy said:

Jimbeaux said:

Mr Whippy said:

Jimbeaux said:

Firstly, the FBI restated that it was not a disgruntled employee hacking Sony, so unless you have better evidence than the FBI, you may wish to quell that for now. As to wishing Russia and China would meld and be an "alternative", well, most sane people know better than to wish for that. Warmongers? Sick of being allied? Get real. We do, as all nations, what is in our best interests. If you think for one damn second that China and Russia would not do worse for their self interests, then you are deluded. Would you then be "sick to be allied" with them as well???

http://nypost.com/2014/12/30/new-evidence-sony-hack-was-inside-job-cyber-experts/

And lets not forget this is the USA that blew up Iraq because of non-existent WMDs.

And wanted to invade Syria because Assad chem attacked his people, despite not doing so.

How many times do you need to be lied to, or misled, to start to question what you are told by officials?


Wasn't the entire point of the Sony hack originally to show the bad practice by a corporate monster which is Sony? There is motive behind ex employees, and the stupid crap film which has now been hyped up wasn't even mentioned for weeks after the hack, or by the hackers initially or for weeks since.

Jeez, did the originally hackers even send the bomb threats about the film? Given Sony's history in ethical issues recently I wouldn't be surprised to find they threatened themselves to get their naff film some revenue and free press.


The USA just seems to lie and mislead it's people for it's own ends.


And yes, nations doing what they need to do for their best interests is great. That is commendable. But what have they done in the last 20 years that was in any common American's best interests?


Dave

You still believe a Sony employee did the hacking?

I don't think NK hacked Sony because of a film that parodied the NK leader, no.


Read around on the internet and it's pretty clear there is a mountain of evidence pointing towards employees with grudges and other groups unhappy with the way Sony moves in the world of internets and multimedia, employment, equality, and a mountain of other things the original hack brought to light in the original hack news stories.

If you want sources for any of these amazing insights, try any media outlet that isn't attached to some large corporate USA machine.

Dave

Like who, the BBC?

[Octoposse]

Jimbeaux said:

Like who, the BBC?

Actually quite a useful guide - when the narrative switches, say, from ". . the government of Ukraine . . " to "the Yanukovych regime" you know what's coming . .

[toppstuff]

Mr Whippy said:

toppstuff said:

There is simply no comparison at all, between what you see as the "removal of freedoms and liberties" in the US and the freedoms apparent in Russia and China. You would have to be either crazy or in dire need of a one way ticket to Vladivostock to believe so.

I'm not comparing and trying to choose a winner, or playing Nation Top Trumps.

Is this some kind of weird character trait that if you don't support one thing, you must by definition support the other?


The USA is removing freedoms and liberties, wealth gap widening, corporates taking on more power and controlling the direction of the future of the USA more than the common man, with little sign of stopping.

Well, you keep saying things like "I'm just saying the USA are as bad as them, or possibly worse." YOU are the one drawing comparisons. And they are crazy, ignorant and silly comparisons.

By all means we can discuss the shortcomings of the US administration, but while you keep discussing the US in a context where you seem to live in some crazy world where Russia is actually "better" then you can expect me call it out as ludicrous.

[Mr Whippy]

toppstuff said:

Mr Whippy said:

toppstuff said:

There is simply no comparison at all, between what you see as the "removal of freedoms and liberties" in the US and the freedoms apparent in Russia and China. You would have to be either crazy or in dire need of a one way ticket to Vladivostock to believe so.

I'm not comparing and trying to choose a winner, or playing Nation Top Trumps.

Is this some kind of weird character trait that if you don't support one thing, you must by definition support the other?


The USA is removing freedoms and liberties, wealth gap widening, corporates taking on more power and controlling the direction of the future of the USA more than the common man, with little sign of stopping.

Well, you keep saying things like "I'm just saying the USA are as bad as them, or possibly worse." YOU are the one drawing comparisons. And they are crazy, ignorant and silly comparisons.

By all means we can discuss the shortcomings of the US administration, but while you keep discussing the US in a context where you seem to live in some crazy world where Russia is actually "better" then you can expect me call it out as ludicrous.

Russia isn't "better". I never said it is.

I've said they're all shades of dark grey or black.

I just note that the USA is becoming a darker shade year by year.

Patriot Act, media control because of terrorism. You can bet that a clamp down on internet freedoms will arrive shortly because of the cyber-wars.

You're even being restricted from easily finding and reading news that counters what the 'powers that be' want you to see... yes it's still there, but it's a thin end of the wedge imo.
http://www.infowars.com/alexa-caught-targeting-con...


It's easy today to be critical of Russia and China (and also the US supported Saudi Arabia) because of their governmental approaches and freedoms, but the USA is slipping down the same slope rapidly in the last 10 years.



I think it's certainly valid to consider this angle of argument on the righteousness of the USA's and Russia's actions in the Ukraine isn't too useful in saying who has the moral upper ground or not.

NEITHER side is white, so to allude that the USA is allowed to run around the world doing as it wishes because it's apparent domestic freedoms are a bit better as of today is silly.

Dave

[Transmitter Man]

Mr Whippy said:

Jimbeaux said:

Firstly, the FBI restated that it was not a disgruntled employee hacking Sony, so unless you have better evidence than the FBI, you may wish to quell that for now. As to wishing Russia and China would meld and be an "alternative", well, most sane people know better than to wish for that. Warmongers? Sick of being allied? Get real. We do, as all nations, what is in our best interests. If you think for one damn second that China and Russia would not do worse for their self interests, then you are deluded. Would you then be "sick to be allied" with them as well???

http://nypost.com/2014/12/30/new-evidence-sony-hack-was-inside-job-cyber-experts/

And lets not forget this is the USA that blew up Iraq because of non-existent WMDs.

And wanted to invade Syria because Assad chem attacked his people, despite not doing so.

How many times do you need to be lied to, or misled, to start to question what you are told by officials?


Wasn't the entire point of the Sony hack originally to show the bad practice by a corporate monster which is Sony? There is motive behind ex employees, and the stupid crap film which has now been hyped up wasn't even mentioned for weeks after the hack, or by the hackers initially or for weeks since.

Jeez, did the originally hackers even send the bomb threats about the film? Given Sony's history in ethical issues recently I wouldn't be surprised to find they threatened themselves to get their naff film some revenue and free press.


The USA just seems to lie and mislead it's people for it's own ends.


And yes, nations doing what they need to do for their best interests is great. That is commendable. But what have they done in the last 20 years that was in any common American's best interests?


Dave

Mr Whippy,

I'd be interested to know your references for Assad and the SAA not having gassed their own citizens?

This source says otherwise and they had the very first foreign journalists on site after the first attack back in April of last year:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/evidence...

Note the passage where they discuss the weight of the munitions used to deploy the gas and the fact they're far to heavy to be launched from ground based weapons.

Now please don't brush this aside. Some non- SANA or RT independent references would be appreciated.

Phil

[Mr Whippy]

It's quite a long article, can you specifically point out where they say the munitions were too heavy to be anything but air-dropped?

Generally though, it's just full of he said she said type claims.

I don't know who to trust.




I've already said way way back in this entire thread that I'm on no ones side. I'm on my OWN side... which is that I trust no one because it's all bullst agenda's driven by the 0.1% greedy f**kers of the world, while the majority who just want a safe world for our families have to pay the ultimate price.

For all I know Assad dropped chemical weapons, for all I know the USA flew over and dropped them.

I'd probably only be able to make my own mind up by going there myself and looking at the evidence and using my own un-biased judgement rather than building my beliefs based on biased information.


Given the reports that support one view are as weighty as the reports supporting the other, the logical conclusion is to simply say we don't know, and that both sides could be just as guilty of atrocities.

But both 'sides' like this, divide and conquer tactics I suppose.



Why there is no valid middle ground standpoint that seems acceptable these days is worrying.

To not nail your colours to the mast seems like a validation that you agree with the opposing views of any person you talk to.


Does everyone here believe what they are told by their government? I've tended to find that I invert what I hear and that is usually what is correct when listening to politicians or other people who enjoy power.
Scientists and engineers on the other hand, usually are worth trusting and listening to.

Dave

[skyrover]

Mr Whippy said:

Russia isn't "better". I never said it is.

Strange... not long ago you said

Mr Whippy said:

I truly hope Russia and China's relationship is strengthening and that there becomes an alternative to the US petrodollar, and USD reserve currency.

Now, why would you state that unless you somehow believed that Russia and China would do a better job leading the "free world"?

[toppstuff]

skyrover said:

Mr Whippy said:

Russia isn't "better". I never said it is.

Strange... not long ago you said

Mr Whippy said:

I truly hope Russia and China's relationship is strengthening and that there becomes an alternative to the US petrodollar, and USD reserve currency.

Now, why would you state that unless you somehow believed that Russia and China would do a better job leading the "free world"?

Which is precisely the problem I have with Whippy's position.

By all accounts lets talk about the US and the apparent erosion of civil liberties, but to offer that in the context of comparing the US with autocratic or totalitarian states and even stating explicitly that the US is "worse" ( Whippy's own words) needs to be called out as BS. IMO.

[Mr Whippy]

skyrover said:

Mr Whippy said:

Russia isn't "better". I never said it is.

Strange... not long ago you said

Mr Whippy said:

I truly hope Russia and China's relationship is strengthening and that there becomes an alternative to the US petrodollar, and USD reserve currency.

Now, why would you state that unless you somehow believed that Russia and China would do a better job leading the "free world"?

I didn't say they were better.

I don't want Russia and China to lead the free world, to then even think they could be 'better' at it.

I just want a world where we don't blow each other up, or screw each other over... the majority of innocent people just wanting to get on and live their lives, so a few individuals can extend their lot in life.

Having any one nut-job super power in control isn't ideal. Having many is a much more preferable situation.

Note how the 'West' has become increasingly less 'free' since we started to fight faceless nation-less terrorists, rather than the USSR evil commies.

If that trend continues then I'm not a supporter of it.

[skyrover]

Mr Whippy said:

I just want a world where we don't blow each other up, or screw each other over... the majority of innocent people just wanting to get on and live their lives, so a few individuals can extend their lot in life.

Don't we all?

Not going to happen though, at least until fusion power solves all of our energy problems... maybe

Then we can look forward to ideology driven conflict as opposed to resource driven.

[toppstuff]

Mr Whippy said:

I didn't say they were better.

I don't want Russia and China to lead the free world, to then even think they could be 'better' at it.

I just want a world where we don't blow each other up, or screw each other over... the majority of innocent people just wanting to get on and live their lives, so a few individuals can extend their lot in life.

Having any one nut-job super power in control isn't ideal. Having many is a much more preferable situation.

Note how the 'West' has become increasingly less 'free' since we started to fight faceless nation-less terrorists, rather than the USSR evil commies.

If that trend continues then I'm not a supporter of it.

But how are you less "free" than you were, say, 5 years ago? 10 years ago?

Aside from a fuzzy sense that internet eavesdropping or phone hacking , for example, " Is a Bad Thing", in what way are you freedoms restricted?

I am interested to know because in every aspect of my life, I can't think of anything that I feel impinges on my sense of freedom, of self-determination.

I'm interested to know precisely why you feel so differently? What do you want to do, that somehow you feel you are being restricted from doing?

[Mr Whippy]

skyrover said:

Mr Whippy said:

I just want a world where we don't blow each other up, or screw each other over... the majority of innocent people just wanting to get on and live their lives, so a few individuals can extend their lot in life.

Don't we all?

Not going to happen though, at least until fusion power solves all of our energy problems... maybe

Maybe being the key issue.

It's more likely we'll see fusion power benefit the majority if we live in a world where there are many independent powerful nations, rather than just one.

Dave

[skyrover]

Mr Whippy said:

skyrover said:

Mr Whippy said:

I just want a world where we don't blow each other up, or screw each other over... the majority of innocent people just wanting to get on and live their lives, so a few individuals can extend their lot in life.

Don't we all?

Not going to happen though, at least until fusion power solves all of our energy problems... maybe

Maybe being the key issue.

It's more likely we'll see fusion power benefit the majority if we live in a world where there are many independent powerful nations, rather than just one.

Dave

In that respect, perhaps the threat of nuclear annihilation has been the key to world peace.

There has never been such a long period in history where two major powers have failed to go to war.