War with Russia
Discussion
I don't know any more 
To clarify. Russia are no whiter or blacker than the USA, and vice versa... based on what we peasants are exposed to via the MSM or tidbit propaganda pieces on YT, and based on past experiences.
To lean either way suggests you believe one liar over another which ultimately is fair enough, but it doesn't hold water to then say who is right or wrong in this issue.
It's just as likely that the USA has been caught out doing it's Western expansionist nonsense, as it is Russia getting called on it's expansionist silliness.
All the while we sit in the middle wondering what the flip is going on... ultimately being on no 'side', and just being here to pick up the pieces and suffer the consequences afterwards.
Dave
To clarify. Russia are no whiter or blacker than the USA, and vice versa... based on what we peasants are exposed to via the MSM or tidbit propaganda pieces on YT, and based on past experiences.
To lean either way suggests you believe one liar over another which ultimately is fair enough, but it doesn't hold water to then say who is right or wrong in this issue.
It's just as likely that the USA has been caught out doing it's Western expansionist nonsense, as it is Russia getting called on it's expansionist silliness.
All the while we sit in the middle wondering what the flip is going on... ultimately being on no 'side', and just being here to pick up the pieces and suffer the consequences afterwards.
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
I don't know any more
To clarify. Russia are no whiter or blacker than the USA, and vice versa... based on what we peasants are exposed to via the MSM or tidbit propaganda pieces on YT, and based on past experiences.
To lean either way suggests you believe one liar over another which ultimately is fair enough, but it doesn't hold water to then say who is right or wrong in this issue.
It's just as likely that the USA has been caught out doing it's Western expansionist nonsense, as it is Russia getting called on it's expansionist silliness.
All the while we sit in the middle wondering what the flip is going on... ultimately being on no 'side', and just being here to pick up the pieces and suffer the consequences afterwards.
Dave
You're doing it again. Putting western democracies ( and they are just that - STILL democracies with a rule of law and accountability ) on the "same level" as autocratic states like Russia.To clarify. Russia are no whiter or blacker than the USA, and vice versa... based on what we peasants are exposed to via the MSM or tidbit propaganda pieces on YT, and based on past experiences.
To lean either way suggests you believe one liar over another which ultimately is fair enough, but it doesn't hold water to then say who is right or wrong in this issue.
It's just as likely that the USA has been caught out doing it's Western expansionist nonsense, as it is Russia getting called on it's expansionist silliness.
All the while we sit in the middle wondering what the flip is going on... ultimately being on no 'side', and just being here to pick up the pieces and suffer the consequences afterwards.
Dave
There are two things flawed in your perspective: Firstly, you massively underestimate the extent of corruption, duplicity and unfairness inherent in all of Russian society and, secondly, you overestimate the US's ability to somehow control things to its own agenda.
Russia is essentially no more than a big oil company with an army. It has no accountability. The US and the west may clearly push your buttons and get you paranoid about "big business" , but it pales into insignificance.
Spend some time in Eastern Europe and you'll gain some perspective. Lets be clear here - Russia IS 'blacker" than the USA, if only for the simple reason they have had the same man in charge for 15 years and he owns everything together with his cronies. The moment that POTUS takes US natural resources and hands them over to himself and his friends, removes the two house system and locks up the opposing parties, then gags the press, then they are equal. Until then, your case makes no sense.
I am not saying that your fears are groundless, because they are not. I too worry about the direction western democracies are taking, but your perspective is all over the place.
Stop being a Don Quixote.
toppstuff said:
The moment that POTUS takes US natural resources and hands them over to himself and his friends, removes the two house system and locks up the opposing parties, then gags the press, then they are equal. Until then, your case makes no sense.
your perspective is all over the place.
It's shades of grey.your perspective is all over the place.
The only really clear cut case is freedom of the press. The BBC manages to lean one way or the other and despite trying to simply observe events, can often paint a subtle bias... we're not immune to bias in the main stream media in the west which can be just as subversive... and still suggests a desire by government or powerful people, for control over what information is generally consumed by the public and shaping their views of the world around them.
Does a perspective have to be static?
I've already said I don't believe in any of it. I have no faith in any of what I hear through officials or main stream media. Both sides are saying different, so I can't trust either without far more information than is available to me, or any other mere mortal.
My perspective is wandering because I'm taking many standpoints on the matter... depending on which lies/truths I decide to accept as reliable for arguing one way or the other.
Confused yet? I know I am
Dave
toppstuff said:
Mr Whippy said:
I don't know any more
To clarify. Russia are no whiter or blacker than the USA, and vice versa... based on what we peasants are exposed to via the MSM or tidbit propaganda pieces on YT, and based on past experiences.
To lean either way suggests you believe one liar over another which ultimately is fair enough, but it doesn't hold water to then say who is right or wrong in this issue.
It's just as likely that the USA has been caught out doing it's Western expansionist nonsense, as it is Russia getting called on it's expansionist silliness.
All the while we sit in the middle wondering what the flip is going on... ultimately being on no 'side', and just being here to pick up the pieces and suffer the consequences afterwards.
Dave
You're doing it again. Putting western democracies ( and they are just that - STILL democracies with a rule of law and accountability ) on the "same level" as autocratic states like Russia.To clarify. Russia are no whiter or blacker than the USA, and vice versa... based on what we peasants are exposed to via the MSM or tidbit propaganda pieces on YT, and based on past experiences.
To lean either way suggests you believe one liar over another which ultimately is fair enough, but it doesn't hold water to then say who is right or wrong in this issue.
It's just as likely that the USA has been caught out doing it's Western expansionist nonsense, as it is Russia getting called on it's expansionist silliness.
All the while we sit in the middle wondering what the flip is going on... ultimately being on no 'side', and just being here to pick up the pieces and suffer the consequences afterwards.
Dave
There are two things flawed in your perspective: Firstly, you massively underestimate the extent of corruption, duplicity and unfairness inherent in all of Russian society and, secondly, you overestimate the US's ability to somehow control things to its own agenda.
Russia is essentially no more than a big oil company with an army. It has no accountability. The US and the west may clearly push your buttons and get you paranoid about "big business" , but it pales into insignificance.
Spend some time in Eastern Europe and you'll gain some perspective. Lets be clear here - Russia IS 'blacker" than the USA, if only for the simple reason they have had the same man in charge for 15 years and he owns everything together with his cronies. The moment that POTUS takes US natural resources and hands them over to himself and his friends, removes the two house system and locks up the opposing parties, then gags the press, then they are equal. Until then, your case makes no sense.
I am not saying that your fears are groundless, because they are not. I too worry about the direction western democracies are taking, but your perspective is all over the place.
Stop being a Don Quixote.
That's all very well.
But it doesn't change the fact that either side could be lying in this situation.
Yes the USA has a superior system for electing government and has freedom of speech, but it's not stopped the country going to war under false pretences.
To try mix in freedom of speech and democracy as reasons for the USA to be trusted in this case, and for Russia to be assumed the bad guy and instigator, makes no sense.
I still prefer to sit on the fence and say neither side has earned my trust for me to have faith that the string of events portrayed by their 'side' is what has actually happened.
There are too many possible explanations to draw one out and subscribe to it.
But it doesn't change the fact that either side could be lying in this situation.
Yes the USA has a superior system for electing government and has freedom of speech, but it's not stopped the country going to war under false pretences.
To try mix in freedom of speech and democracy as reasons for the USA to be trusted in this case, and for Russia to be assumed the bad guy and instigator, makes no sense.
I still prefer to sit on the fence and say neither side has earned my trust for me to have faith that the string of events portrayed by their 'side' is what has actually happened.
There are too many possible explanations to draw one out and subscribe to it.
Mr Whippy said:
Well what struck me was that they were very open about it all, and you could imagine all counter-terrorist actions being covered like this. A positive spin to reassure people that "the war against terror" (t
t) is working.
But everything else is cloak and dagger. Surely a positive side in tt, would be to show people how these systems are working and helping protect them.
And as soon as Bin Laden was gone, ISIS appear. And then lone wolf terrorists all of a sudden.
If you keep following the logical path of how society reacts to these increasingly hard to stop acts of terrorism, it won't be long until you have cameras in your house, and curfews, and no cash to buy bomb making equipment without leaving a trace, or whatever else.
But it's all ok, because you're still free, and if you don't do anything wrong you have nothing to fear.
I'll pray it doesn't happen, but it seems plenty in the USA are happy for the system for it to happen be built around them, but be used for other purposes.
Dave
I don't agree that they were very open about it all, but do agree that they milked it for propaganda purposes. t) is working.But everything else is cloak and dagger. Surely a positive side in t
t, would be to show people how these systems are working and helping protect them.And as soon as Bin Laden was gone, ISIS appear. And then lone wolf terrorists all of a sudden.
If you keep following the logical path of how society reacts to these increasingly hard to stop acts of terrorism, it won't be long until you have cameras in your house, and curfews, and no cash to buy bomb making equipment without leaving a trace, or whatever else.
But it's all ok, because you're still free, and if you don't do anything wrong you have nothing to fear.
I'll pray it doesn't happen, but it seems plenty in the USA are happy for the system for it to happen be built around them, but be used for other purposes.
Dave
Much of what you've written about in your various posts has already occured. There are some great journalists and thinkers out there who have broken much of this down in far more detail than could ever be reproduced here. Henry Giroux, Greg Palast, Morris Berman, Chris Hedges, Jeremy Scahill, and James Kunstler are worth investigating, if you're not familiar with them.
Interpol issues arrest warrant for Victor Yanukovych, ex-leader of Ukraine who has fled to Russia.
He is accused by Ukrainian officials of embezzling millions of dollars in public funds.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30777844
He is accused by Ukrainian officials of embezzling millions of dollars in public funds.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30777844
A talk by Peter Hitchens, well worth the time to listen to, if you are interested in Russia and it's place in the world.
A measured, informed and very interesting perspective on Putin.
Peter Hitchens speaks to the University of Bristol's International Affairs Society on the subject: 'Why I Like Vladimir Putin' on 15th October 2013.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeO44STvnJw
A measured, informed and very interesting perspective on Putin.
Peter Hitchens speaks to the University of Bristol's International Affairs Society on the subject: 'Why I Like Vladimir Putin' on 15th October 2013.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeO44STvnJw
QuantumTokoloshi said:
A talk by Peter Hitchens, well worth the time to listen to, if you are interested in Russia and it's place in the world.
A measured, informed and very interesting perspective on Putin.
Peter Hitchens speaks to the University of Bristol's International Affairs Society on the subject: 'Why I Like Vladimir Putin' on 15th October 2013.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeO44STvnJw
intersting and adds weight to my conviction that the Blair beast is the spawn of satanA measured, informed and very interesting perspective on Putin.
Peter Hitchens speaks to the University of Bristol's International Affairs Society on the subject: 'Why I Like Vladimir Putin' on 15th October 2013.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeO44STvnJw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnJOsOzpz4k
Found this piece very good, some of the solutions and the guys ideals seem pretty down to earth.
A lot of pro EU stuff, expecting to be flamed.
Found this piece very good, some of the solutions and the guys ideals seem pretty down to earth.
A lot of pro EU stuff, expecting to be flamed.
Ex-Terrorist leader Igor Girkin “Referendum in Crimea was a farce”
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/01/24/ex-terrorist...
Can't see him defecting to the West... too much blood on his hands, but not going to find many friends in the Kremlin either. Polonium sandwich coming soon?
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/01/24/ex-terrorist...
Article said:
Igor Girkin, ex-minister of defense of the so-called Donetsk Republic, who fled Donetsk in August of 2014, when Ukrainian forces began their suppression of terrorist forces, has now become a peculiar kind of self-whistle blower. Recently, sitting in a studio of the “Polit-Ring” debate TV show featured by something called NeuroMirTV, Girkin has openly described some of the schemes which were implemented during the illegal referendum in Crimea in the spring of 2014, which was later used as the excuse by Russia for the annexation of the peninsula. As his opponent is passionately describing how Crimean outfits of the Ukrainian army and the police were, in his opinion, in all ways supporting of “people’s desire to reunite with Russia”, Girking quietly laughs, and retorts:
“Have you actually been to Crimea during the referendum? Well, I have. I have been there since February the 20th. What you are describing here is absolute rubbish. There were no policemen who supported our side at that time. The only law-enforcement subdivision that has joined our ranks back then was the Berkut. The rest of the law-enforcement agencies remained under control of Ukrainian Ministry of Internal, and kept carrying out the MIA’s orders. Yes, sometimes they were sabotaging these orders, but all in all they were under Ukrainian control. I haven’t seen any support from official governmental representatives in Simferopol. Our troops had to force the deputies into the Oblast Council hall so that these representatives would vote in favor of our initiatives. I know this because I have been at the time commandeering one of such militant teams and I’ve seen it all from the inside. We had absolutely no support from the people, not to mention the army. The Ukrainian army units remained loyal to Kyiv as they were. Furthermore, most of the army remained that way. The only thing that made what we have accomplished in Crimea possible was the presence of Russian army.” (Fragment of video in Russian):
Girkin’s militant façade is pretty much gone today, as if the ex-terrorist is trying to distance himself from responsibility for his crimes. His Cossack style wavy hair has become neatly trimmed; his camouflage is now replaced with cozy Mr. Rogers cardigan. Though outspoken about the atrocities he caused, of which he seems to be nevertheless proud, an ex-rebel prefers to maintain somewhat neutral towards the war today, though bitter about, as he puts it, the lack of Russian support in the East of Ukraine. Whether this is his way of agitating for further Russian invasion or simply a covert lie to avoid awkward questions about his rushed departure from Donetsk in the end of August 2014 is hard to tell. What is undeniable though is that Girking is not too keen about returning to his “rebellion” activities in Ukraine. Perhaps it is time for his comrades to follow their leader’s example. After all, he is still alive and in one piece.
Very interesting... distancing himself from the so called rebellion. “Have you actually been to Crimea during the referendum? Well, I have. I have been there since February the 20th. What you are describing here is absolute rubbish. There were no policemen who supported our side at that time. The only law-enforcement subdivision that has joined our ranks back then was the Berkut. The rest of the law-enforcement agencies remained under control of Ukrainian Ministry of Internal, and kept carrying out the MIA’s orders. Yes, sometimes they were sabotaging these orders, but all in all they were under Ukrainian control. I haven’t seen any support from official governmental representatives in Simferopol. Our troops had to force the deputies into the Oblast Council hall so that these representatives would vote in favor of our initiatives. I know this because I have been at the time commandeering one of such militant teams and I’ve seen it all from the inside. We had absolutely no support from the people, not to mention the army. The Ukrainian army units remained loyal to Kyiv as they were. Furthermore, most of the army remained that way. The only thing that made what we have accomplished in Crimea possible was the presence of Russian army.” (Fragment of video in Russian):
Girkin’s militant façade is pretty much gone today, as if the ex-terrorist is trying to distance himself from responsibility for his crimes. His Cossack style wavy hair has become neatly trimmed; his camouflage is now replaced with cozy Mr. Rogers cardigan. Though outspoken about the atrocities he caused, of which he seems to be nevertheless proud, an ex-rebel prefers to maintain somewhat neutral towards the war today, though bitter about, as he puts it, the lack of Russian support in the East of Ukraine. Whether this is his way of agitating for further Russian invasion or simply a covert lie to avoid awkward questions about his rushed departure from Donetsk in the end of August 2014 is hard to tell. What is undeniable though is that Girking is not too keen about returning to his “rebellion” activities in Ukraine. Perhaps it is time for his comrades to follow their leader’s example. After all, he is still alive and in one piece.
Can't see him defecting to the West... too much blood on his hands, but not going to find many friends in the Kremlin either. Polonium sandwich coming soon?
or just made up "voice of freedom" to show Russia as more democratic, blah
btw an American(or Ukrainian from USA) in Mariupol yesterday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW1JdOXdJkU&x-...
btw an American(or Ukrainian from USA) in Mariupol yesterday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW1JdOXdJkU&x-...
scherzkeks said:
hidetheelephants said:
It would if Obama was shipping over 'Old Ironsides' to even up the match, but he isn't.
Too old fashioned, and then you've got international law in the way. Much preferrable to ship in the mercenaries and let them handle the dirty work.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff