War with Russia
Discussion
Octoposse said:
Transmitter Man said:
Does anyone think it's work the talk with Putin?
I think not.
Phil
Well, there was an obvious deal on the table 11 months ago, and there still is. Alternatively we could fight to the last Ukrainian.I think not.
Phil
Liokault said:
Octoposse said:
Transmitter Man said:
Does anyone think it's work the talk with Putin?
I think not.
Phil
Well, there was an obvious deal on the table 11 months ago, and there still is. Alternatively we could fight to the last Ukrainian.I think not.
Phil
skyrover said:
Transmitter Man said:
Does anyone think it's work the talk with Putin?
I think not.
Phil
You need a desire for peace before talks will succeed. I think not.
Phil
It's probably fair to say not all sides share this desire.
Russia wants Ukraine to lean towards Russia.
The Ukranians probably just want to be independent and are stuck with only one option, being occupied by one foreign interest not for their interests, but for the interests of just a few greedy wealth/politico types from either Russia or the West.
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
The West wants Ukraine to lean to the West.
Russia wants Ukraine to lean towards Russia.
Quite so. But it's Russia that has been reactive and the West proactive:Russia wants Ukraine to lean towards Russia.
- EU offers a trade deal, Russia offers a better deal;
- The West backs a coup in the capital, Russia backs a counter-coup in the provinces.
- Kiev uses air power aqgainst Russian speakers, Russia provides air defence systems.
The good news is that if 'we' really want peace, it's a piece of cake. But we don't, because that would let Putin off the hook - hand him a victory in effect - and it appears that a huge pile of Ukrainian (and Russian) corpses is preferrable . . .
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Adam Curtis has a new documentary called bitter Lake, his blog is also a great time eater.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis
Well worth a watch, as it covers Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Syria but is equally applicable to the Ukraine and Russian situation.
It is particularly apt now.
I second this, invest the time in bitterlake and it'll reward you with a different documentary experience. It paints a slow horrible picture of one evil web woven over time.http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis
Well worth a watch, as it covers Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Syria but is equally applicable to the Ukraine and Russian situation.
It is particularly apt now.
Mr Whippy said:
skyrover said:
Transmitter Man said:
Does anyone think it's work the talk with Putin?
I think not.
Phil
You need a desire for peace before talks will succeed. I think not.
Phil
It's probably fair to say not all sides share this desire.
Russia wants Ukraine to lean towards Russia.
The Ukranians probably just want to be independent and are stuck with only one option, being occupied by one foreign interest not for their interests, but for the interests of just a few greedy wealth/politico types from either Russia or the West.
Dave
skyrover said:
Mr Whippy said:
skyrover said:
Transmitter Man said:
Does anyone think it's work the talk with Putin?
I think not.
Phil
You need a desire for peace before talks will succeed. I think not.
Phil
It's probably fair to say not all sides share this desire.
Russia wants Ukraine to lean towards Russia.
The Ukranians probably just want to be independent and are stuck with only one option, being occupied by one foreign interest not for their interests, but for the interests of just a few greedy wealth/politico types from either Russia or the West.
Dave
If the USA start supplying weapons overtly to Ukraine, Putin then does not even have to maintain any deception, gloves come off.
It will be a bloodbath of Ukrainian bodies.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Saturday 7th February 21:26
Mr Whippy said:
The West wants Ukraine to lean to the West.
Russia wants Ukraine to lean towards Russia.
The Ukranians probably just want to be independent and are stuck with only one option, being occupied by one foreign interest not for their interests, but for the interests of just a few greedy wealth/politico types from either Russia or the West.
Dave
Dave,Russia wants Ukraine to lean towards Russia.
The Ukranians probably just want to be independent and are stuck with only one option, being occupied by one foreign interest not for their interests, but for the interests of just a few greedy wealth/politico types from either Russia or the West.
Dave
The Ukrainians voted and would like closer ties with Europe (I think after several hundred years with ties to Russia they prefer the chance of a better life), that is unless you think the elections were rigged!
Phil
QuantumTokoloshi said:
skyrover said:
Mr Whippy said:
skyrover said:
Transmitter Man said:
Does anyone think it's work the talk with Putin?
I think not.
Phil
You need a desire for peace before talks will succeed. I think not.
Phil
It's probably fair to say not all sides share this desire.
Russia wants Ukraine to lean towards Russia.
The Ukranians probably just want to be independent and are stuck with only one option, being occupied by one foreign interest not for their interests, but for the interests of just a few greedy wealth/politico types from either Russia or the West.
Dave
If the USA start supplying weapons overtly to Ukraine, Putin then does not even have to maintain any deception, gloves come off.
It will be a bloodbath of Ukrainian bodies.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Saturday 7th February 21:26
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp...
Transmitter Man said:
Mr Whippy said:
The West wants Ukraine to lean to the West.
Russia wants Ukraine to lean towards Russia.
The Ukranians probably just want to be independent and are stuck with only one option, being occupied by one foreign interest not for their interests, but for the interests of just a few greedy wealth/politico types from either Russia or the West.
Dave
Dave,Russia wants Ukraine to lean towards Russia.
The Ukranians probably just want to be independent and are stuck with only one option, being occupied by one foreign interest not for their interests, but for the interests of just a few greedy wealth/politico types from either Russia or the West.
Dave
The Ukrainians voted and would like closer ties with Europe (I think after several hundred years with ties to Russia they prefer the chance of a better life), that is unless you think the elections were rigged!
Phil
The European union is well known for its democratic process of 'keep on voting till we get the outcome we want' Ireland and the Netherlands were previous recipients of this particular brand of democracy.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
They voted, only after a coup d' etat sponsored by Europe and the usa. Janet nuland anyone? Ashton and the Estonia foreign minister?
The European union is well known for its democratic process of 'keep on voting till we get the outcome we want' Ireland and the Netherlands were previous recipients of this particular brand of democracy.
Exactly. This whole tragedy started when 'we' wouldn't accept the outcome of the democratic and consitutional process in Ukraine, which ended up favouring a trade deal with Russia over closer links with the EU.The European union is well known for its democratic process of 'keep on voting till we get the outcome we want' Ireland and the Netherlands were previous recipients of this particular brand of democracy.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
It seems parts of the Ukrainian population disagree, Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. They disagree so strongly they are willing to fight and die for it.
If the USA start supplying weapons overtly to Ukraine, Putin then does not even have to maintain any deception, gloves come off.
It will be a bloodbath of Ukrainian bodies.
QT,If the USA start supplying weapons overtly to Ukraine, Putin then does not even have to maintain any deception, gloves come off.
It will be a bloodbath of Ukrainian bodies.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Saturday 7th February 21:26
So where do the Russian passports from dead Russian fighters/thugs/soldiers in Ukraine come from?
You're not seriously telling me that Putin allowed these men to take simultaneous vacations together with whatever military hardware they wanted, please?
Phil
skyrover said:
Reading that survey John I feel is probably close to the truth.You also have to consider the intimidation shown by these rebels towards the local people with regards speaking out against the new local warlord government. Instances of these have been shown on television in the early days of the invasion.
Phil
Octoposse said:
xactly. This whole tragedy started when 'we' wouldn't accept the outcome of the democratic and constitutional process in Ukraine, which ended up favouring a trade deal with Russia over closer links with the EU.
OP,This depends on what you think Yanukovych's definition is of the word 'democratic' is.
Did you watch the footage of the clear majority of his own men& women in parliament shout for his removal (possibly not shown on RT)!
Did you spend any time actually checking the makeup of the so-called new fascist government? I did, a total of six members of the new, democratically elected government were or are members of Svoboda, the social-national 'political' party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_...
At worst Nick Griffin has six members in parliament - hardly a fascist government, but you know what RT says ...
Phil
Transmitter Man said:
QT,
So where do the Russian passports from dead Russian fighters/thugs/soldiers in Ukraine come from?
You're not seriously telling me that Putin allowed these men to take simultaneous vacations together with whatever military hardware they wanted, please?
Phil
No (if I can answer for QT) . . . Moscow wanted/wants a peace deal (albeit one that recognises their sovereignty over Crimea, which no power on earth can get them to relinquish anyway). The US/EU doesn't . . . Putin must 'pay a price' for Crimea, so supports Kiev trying for a military solution. So where do the Russian passports from dead Russian fighters/thugs/soldiers in Ukraine come from?
You're not seriously telling me that Putin allowed these men to take simultaneous vacations together with whatever military hardware they wanted, please?
Phil
Kiev uses armour, Moscow supplies anti-armour weaponry.
Kiev uses air power (including against civilians in their own homes, out shopping, on their way to work), Moscow supplies air defence systems.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff