War with Russia
Discussion
Transmitter Man said:
This depends on what you think Yanukovych's definition is of the word 'democratic' is.
A democratically elected government, governing within the terms of the constitution.It's a matter of record that the outcome of this process in Ukraine was in favour of a trade deal with Russia as opposed to closer links with the EU - an outcome that was greated with considerable relief by a substantial proportion of the population.
(And, to be fair, considerable anger in other sectors of the population, who are entitled to an opinion. And in the EU and the US State Department, who aren't).
Transmitter Man said:
Please research the history of Crimea and the vastly larger amount of land given to Russia in exchange for this region.
Please research the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the self-determination of peoples bit. Whatever quibbles or objections there may be to process, there is no doubt that the majority of people who actually live there thought of themselves as Russian, and wanted to be Russian.Russia insists that there are no "official" soldiers in Ukraine....just "volunteers" off duty.....
Imagine the scenario...a few "volunteers" going into the barracks and saying "Excuse me Sarg, will it be all right if we borrow 20 tanks and a few heavy weapons for a few months?...we'll bring them back when we have finished with them"...
Although I can see things from the Russian perspective too, they are slowly being surrounded by countries sympathetic to Nato and the west, and must feel very vulnerable...the USA spends SEVEN time more on the military than the Russians...
However, in some ways this argument is flawed, because most large Russian and European cities could be vaporised by two or three ICBM's fired from a submarine 5000 miles away, if things got out of control.....
Imagine the scenario...a few "volunteers" going into the barracks and saying "Excuse me Sarg, will it be all right if we borrow 20 tanks and a few heavy weapons for a few months?...we'll bring them back when we have finished with them"...
Although I can see things from the Russian perspective too, they are slowly being surrounded by countries sympathetic to Nato and the west, and must feel very vulnerable...the USA spends SEVEN time more on the military than the Russians...
However, in some ways this argument is flawed, because most large Russian and European cities could be vaporised by two or three ICBM's fired from a submarine 5000 miles away, if things got out of control.....
Edited by Wacky Racer on Sunday 8th February 20:49
Octoposse said:
lease research the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the self-determination of peoples bit. Whatever quibbles or objections there may be to process, there is no doubt that the majority of people who actually live there thought of themselves as Russian, and wanted to be Russian.
OP,No quibbles or objections but I prefer to put forward the facts.
Here's a copy of the land transfer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crim...
"On February 19, 1954 the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union issued a decree transferring the Crimean Oblast from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian SSR. According to the Soviet Constitution (article 18), the borders of a republic within the Soviet Union could not be re-drawn without the agreement of the republic in question. The transfer was approved by the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union; however, according to article 33 of the constitution, the Presidium did not have the authority to do so. The constitutional change (articles 22 and 23) to accommodate the transfer was made several days after the decree issued by the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet.[1][2]
The decree was first announced, on the front page of Pravda, on February 27, 1954.[3] The full text of the decree was:[4]
"Decree of the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet transferring the Crimea Province from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR."
Phil
Transmitter Man said:
QT,
So where do the Russian passports from dead Russian fighters/thugs/soldiers in Ukraine come from?
You're not seriously telling me that Putin allowed these men to take simultaneous vacations together with whatever military hardware they wanted, please?
Phil
passports? Do you really think invasion force needs passports? So where do the Russian passports from dead Russian fighters/thugs/soldiers in Ukraine come from?
You're not seriously telling me that Putin allowed these men to take simultaneous vacations together with whatever military hardware they wanted, please?
Phil
"Hello ukrainian custom officer, we are invading you and here is our passport so let us in".
Please.
Octoposse said:
Transmitter Man said:
Please research the history of Crimea and the vastly larger amount of land given to Russia in exchange for this region.
Please research the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the self-determination of peoples bit. Whatever quibbles or objections there may be to process, there is no doubt that the majority of people who actually live there thought of themselves as Russian, and wanted to be Russian.
Yes, there's been absolutely no intimidation of non-conformists, no disappearing at night, no armed men in balaclavas outside the polling stations, and absolutely no ballot stuffing of any kind. Have you ever considered doing stand-up? You'd go down a storm in the Kremlin!pete a said:
Not read the entire thread but why is it ok for the USA to supply weapons to the Ukraine? I'm fairly certain that if Russia started arming a government formed after a coup to a east leaning mob in Mexico the Americans would be going mental.
Because, the Ukrainian government wants to defend itself against the threat posed by Russia. The only reason for the pro-Russian population in the East is as a result of Russian settlers during the Soviet era (think melting-pot).
pete a said:
Not read the entire thread but why is it ok for the USA to supply weapons to the Ukraine? I'm fairly certain that if Russia started arming a government formed after a coup to a east leaning mob in Mexico the Americans would be going mental.
Several points you have wrong there...Firstly there was no "coup", the ruling party continued in government until the next election. Yanukovych was sacked by his own party after he fled.
Secondly, Russia is arming and continues to send supplies, mercenaries and soldiers into a neighboring country.
Thirdly, Ukraine has no intention of invading a neighbor, it simply wants to prevent a similar scenario to georgia/dagestan/chechnya. Basically the same trick Russia has played several times of the years.
A better scenario would be...
The Mexican population rises against a corrupt government which is slowly selling off land/industry with the intent of becoming a basket case "vassal state" of the USA. It's leaders are of course in the USA's pocket, largely run through a massive organised criminal syndicate.
A new leader is elected whom vows to take Mexico away from the USA "sphere of influence", so that they can emulate their successful neighbor Panama" to the south who enjoys strong, growing economy, transparent government and security from the USA via an alliance with Russia and other South American countries.
The USA is furious and sends "little green men" to occupy the Mexican state of Chihuahua. When questioned about these little green men the USA simply responds that they are "self defence militias" and it has nothing to do with them. The Mexican armed forces and government reps/civil servants are immediately evicted and an snap election is held to determine the "will of the people".
Surprisingly enough the resident of Chihuahua vote almost unanimously to leave Mexico and become part of the USA.
Mexico and the world declare the election a farce and demand the USA leave it's territory at once.
Instead, more green men show up in the states of Sonora and Coahuila, seizing town halls and administrative buildings.
Mexico attempts to mobilize it's decrepit armed forces as more and more green men show up, declaring these states independent as part of the "New USA".
The USA says it has nothing to do with these events, all of the so called freedom fighters are simply disgruntled or repressed Mexicans.
When M1A2 tanks start showing up in Mexico, weapons the Mexicans have never operated, the USA claims they must have acquired them at a local army surplus store.
... you get the idea
skyrover said:
Several points you have wrong there...
Firstly there was no "coup", the ruling party continued in government until the next election. Yanukovych was sacked by his own party after he fled.
Secondly, Russia is arming and continues to send supplies, mercenaries and soldiers into a neighboring country.
Thirdly, Ukraine has no intention of invading a neighbor, it simply wants to prevent a similar scenario to georgia/dagestan/chechnya. Basically the same trick Russia has played several times of the years.
A better scenario would be...
The Mexican population rises against a corrupt government which is slowly selling off land/industry with the intent of becoming a basket case "vassal state" of the USA. It's leaders are of course in the USA's pocket, largely run through a massive organised criminal syndicate.
A new leader is elected whom vows to take Mexico away from the USA "sphere of influence", so that they can emulate their successful neighbor Panama" to the south who enjoys strong, growing economy, transparent government and security from the USA via an alliance with Russia and other South American countries.
The USA is furious and sends "little green men" to occupy the Mexican state of Chihuahua. When questioned about these little green men the USA simply responds that they are "self defence militias" and it has nothing to do with them. The Mexican armed forces and government reps/civil servants are immediately evicted and an snap election is held to determine the "will of the people".
Surprisingly enough the resident of Chihuahua vote almost unanimously to leave Mexico and become part of the USA.
Mexico and the world declare the election a farce and demand the USA leave it's territory at once.
Instead, more green men show up in the states of Sonora and Coahuila, seizing town halls and administrative buildings.
Mexico attempts to mobilize it's decrepit armed forces as more and more green men show up, declaring these states independent as part of the "New USA".
The USA says it has nothing to do with these events, all of the so called freedom fighters are simply disgruntled or repressed Mexicans.
When M1A2 tanks start showing up in Mexico, weapons the Mexicans have never operated, the USA claims they must have acquired them at a local army surplus store.
... you get the idea
That's very well put together and you are clearly more gifted than I when it comes to story writing, assuming the above scenario would Russia be right to send arms to the anti-US Mexicans?Firstly there was no "coup", the ruling party continued in government until the next election. Yanukovych was sacked by his own party after he fled.
Secondly, Russia is arming and continues to send supplies, mercenaries and soldiers into a neighboring country.
Thirdly, Ukraine has no intention of invading a neighbor, it simply wants to prevent a similar scenario to georgia/dagestan/chechnya. Basically the same trick Russia has played several times of the years.
A better scenario would be...
The Mexican population rises against a corrupt government which is slowly selling off land/industry with the intent of becoming a basket case "vassal state" of the USA. It's leaders are of course in the USA's pocket, largely run through a massive organised criminal syndicate.
A new leader is elected whom vows to take Mexico away from the USA "sphere of influence", so that they can emulate their successful neighbor Panama" to the south who enjoys strong, growing economy, transparent government and security from the USA via an alliance with Russia and other South American countries.
The USA is furious and sends "little green men" to occupy the Mexican state of Chihuahua. When questioned about these little green men the USA simply responds that they are "self defence militias" and it has nothing to do with them. The Mexican armed forces and government reps/civil servants are immediately evicted and an snap election is held to determine the "will of the people".
Surprisingly enough the resident of Chihuahua vote almost unanimously to leave Mexico and become part of the USA.
Mexico and the world declare the election a farce and demand the USA leave it's territory at once.
Instead, more green men show up in the states of Sonora and Coahuila, seizing town halls and administrative buildings.
Mexico attempts to mobilize it's decrepit armed forces as more and more green men show up, declaring these states independent as part of the "New USA".
The USA says it has nothing to do with these events, all of the so called freedom fighters are simply disgruntled or repressed Mexicans.
When M1A2 tanks start showing up in Mexico, weapons the Mexicans have never operated, the USA claims they must have acquired them at a local army surplus store.
... you get the idea
It's a long way from mother Russia after all.
pete a said:
skyrover said:
Several points you have wrong there...
Firstly there was no "coup", the ruling party continued in government until the next election. Yanukovych was sacked by his own party after he fled.
Secondly, Russia is arming and continues to send supplies, mercenaries and soldiers into a neighboring country.
Thirdly, Ukraine has no intention of invading a neighbor, it simply wants to prevent a similar scenario to georgia/dagestan/chechnya. Basically the same trick Russia has played several times of the years.
A better scenario would be...
The Mexican population rises against a corrupt government which is slowly selling off land/industry with the intent of becoming a basket case "vassal state" of the USA. It's leaders are of course in the USA's pocket, largely run through a massive organised criminal syndicate.
A new leader is elected whom vows to take Mexico away from the USA "sphere of influence", so that they can emulate their successful neighbor Panama" to the south who enjoys strong, growing economy, transparent government and security from the USA via an alliance with Russia and other South American countries.
The USA is furious and sends "little green men" to occupy the Mexican state of Chihuahua. When questioned about these little green men the USA simply responds that they are "self defence militias" and it has nothing to do with them. The Mexican armed forces and government reps/civil servants are immediately evicted and an snap election is held to determine the "will of the people".
Surprisingly enough the resident of Chihuahua vote almost unanimously to leave Mexico and become part of the USA.
Mexico and the world declare the election a farce and demand the USA leave it's territory at once.
Instead, more green men show up in the states of Sonora and Coahuila, seizing town halls and administrative buildings.
Mexico attempts to mobilize it's decrepit armed forces as more and more green men show up, declaring these states independent as part of the "New USA".
The USA says it has nothing to do with these events, all of the so called freedom fighters are simply disgruntled or repressed Mexicans.
When M1A2 tanks start showing up in Mexico, weapons the Mexicans have never operated, the USA claims they must have acquired them at a local army surplus store.
... you get the idea
That's very well put together and you are clearly more gifted than I when it comes to story writing, assuming the above scenario would Russia be right to send arms to the anti-US Mexicans?Firstly there was no "coup", the ruling party continued in government until the next election. Yanukovych was sacked by his own party after he fled.
Secondly, Russia is arming and continues to send supplies, mercenaries and soldiers into a neighboring country.
Thirdly, Ukraine has no intention of invading a neighbor, it simply wants to prevent a similar scenario to georgia/dagestan/chechnya. Basically the same trick Russia has played several times of the years.
A better scenario would be...
The Mexican population rises against a corrupt government which is slowly selling off land/industry with the intent of becoming a basket case "vassal state" of the USA. It's leaders are of course in the USA's pocket, largely run through a massive organised criminal syndicate.
A new leader is elected whom vows to take Mexico away from the USA "sphere of influence", so that they can emulate their successful neighbor Panama" to the south who enjoys strong, growing economy, transparent government and security from the USA via an alliance with Russia and other South American countries.
The USA is furious and sends "little green men" to occupy the Mexican state of Chihuahua. When questioned about these little green men the USA simply responds that they are "self defence militias" and it has nothing to do with them. The Mexican armed forces and government reps/civil servants are immediately evicted and an snap election is held to determine the "will of the people".
Surprisingly enough the resident of Chihuahua vote almost unanimously to leave Mexico and become part of the USA.
Mexico and the world declare the election a farce and demand the USA leave it's territory at once.
Instead, more green men show up in the states of Sonora and Coahuila, seizing town halls and administrative buildings.
Mexico attempts to mobilize it's decrepit armed forces as more and more green men show up, declaring these states independent as part of the "New USA".
The USA says it has nothing to do with these events, all of the so called freedom fighters are simply disgruntled or repressed Mexicans.
When M1A2 tanks start showing up in Mexico, weapons the Mexicans have never operated, the USA claims they must have acquired them at a local army surplus store.
... you get the idea
It's a long way from mother Russia after all.
From a moral standpoint, Russia has lied, murdered and stuck two fingers up to the international community, it's neighbors and all previously signed agreements/international law
Anything that forces Russia back to the negotiating table has to be worth a try.
skyrover said:
In real politik it comes down to "will I gain more than I lose"? In Ukraine's case, it is debatable. A stable Russia is in everybody's interest.
From a moral standpoint, Russia has lied, murdered and stuck two fingers up to the international community, it's neighbors and all previously signed agreements/international law
Anything that forces Russia back to the negotiating table has to be worth a try.
I feel Putin is gambling on the EU having no stomach for a war and he is prepared to push this a long long way and if the USA get involved it gives him all he needs to continue with his hard line.From a moral standpoint, Russia has lied, murdered and stuck two fingers up to the international community, it's neighbors and all previously signed agreements/international law
Anything that forces Russia back to the negotiating table has to be worth a try.
Dangerous times
skyrover said:
Dangerous indeed.
Personally I am torn, I can't see Putin backing down... however appeasement only makes the bully bolder.
No wonder the Baltic's are getting twitchy.
If the reports of the Russian Economy are correct he will probably blame that on the west and get away with it at this point I think he has a free hand.Personally I am torn, I can't see Putin backing down... however appeasement only makes the bully bolder.
No wonder the Baltic's are getting twitchy.
Massive explosion in Donetsk
Rumored to be separatist ammunition depot, targeted by Ukrainian forces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuQ5EPnSE_4
Rumored to be separatist ammunition depot, targeted by Ukrainian forces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuQ5EPnSE_4
apparently this was used..
Tochka-U
OTR-21 Tochka (Russian: оперативно-тактический ракетный комплекс (ОТР) «Точка»; English: Tactical Operational Missile Complex "Tochka", "Point") is a Soviet short-range tactical ballistic missile. Its GRAU designation is 9K79; its NATO reporting name is SS-21 Scarab. It is transported in a 9P129 vehicle and raised prior to launch. It uses an inertial guidance system.
Tochka-U
OTR-21 Tochka (Russian: оперативно-тактический ракетный комплекс (ОТР) «Точка»; English: Tactical Operational Missile Complex "Tochka", "Point") is a Soviet short-range tactical ballistic missile. Its GRAU designation is 9K79; its NATO reporting name is SS-21 Scarab. It is transported in a 9P129 vehicle and raised prior to launch. It uses an inertial guidance system.
hidetheelephants said:
Octoposse said:
Transmitter Man said:
Please research the history of Crimea and the vastly larger amount of land given to Russia in exchange for this region.
Please research the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the self-determination of peoples bit. Whatever quibbles or objections there may be to process, there is no doubt that the majority of people who actually live there thought of themselves as Russian, and wanted to be Russian. Yes, there's been absolutely no intimidation of non-conformists, no disappearing at night, no armed men in balaclavas outside the polling stations, and absolutely no ballot stuffing of any kind. Have you ever considered doing stand-up? You'd go down a storm in the Kremlin!Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff