War with Russia

[skyrover]

JagLover said:

cardigankid said:

I would like to believe that Putin has sufficient common sense to know where to draw the line. I deeply mistrust the way this is being built up as another Hitler who sooner or later has to be confronted. The way in which the Europeans are being egged on by the Americans is deeply sinister. In particular I have no intention that members of my family get drawn into a major war against Russia. I do not believe what we are being told.

The line imho would be an extension of this into the Baltic States. That would be a deeply dangerous situation.

Agreed with the last comment and don't believe we will see it happen as the circumstances are very different.

There are many areas of conflict further east, most frozen some hot, what I find very disturbing is the way the west feels determined most of the time to simplify the situation into "good" guys vs "bad".

To take a different example let us look at the Serbs in Croatia, who had been there since the 16th century. Ethnically cleansed by the "good" guys, armed and trained by the west, who in many cases were the ideological descendants of those who had slaughtered 340,000 Serbs during WW2.

Why exactly are we so determined to demonise Russia in the first place?. The only war we have fought in over two centuries is one where we attacked them to preserve an oppressive Ottoman empire. Perhaps the British media at the time were busy telling their readers how "good" the Ottomans were.

Go look up the Budapest memorandum 1994... we are all signatories to this treaty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_o...

[skyrover]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

If Putin wanted the whole of Ukraine, he would have it now or 12 months ago, remember Crimea. Rolling tanks into Ukraine is relatively easy, it is perfect tank country with air superiority. It is so flat you can see the curvature of the earth.

I thought he was this blood thirsty crazy autistic man!

Roll the tanks in and be done with it, worked for George W Bush and ol' Tony
Blair in any case.

Russia does not want the whole of Ukraine.

It's a basket-case, borderline bankrupt and in requirement of huge investment.

Russia does not have the resources to take it under it's wing... however as a failed state with a puppet Russian orientated government it suits Putin perfectly.

The goal is to stop Ukraine moving towards the West, not to make it a part of Russia.

Crimea is slightly different being of large strategic value to the Russians, it will not be returned to Ukraine, even if a puppet government is installed.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Ahmed

skyrover said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

If Putin wanted the whole of Ukraine, he would have it now or 12 months ago, remember Crimea. Rolling tanks into Ukraine is relatively easy, it is perfect tank country with air superiority. It is so flat you can see the curvature of the earth.

I thought he was this blood thirsty crazy autistic man!

Roll the tanks in and be done with it, worked for George W Bush and ol' Tony
Blair in any case.

Russia does not want the whole of Ukraine.

It's a basket-case, borderline bankrupt and in requirement of huge investment.

Russia does not have the resources to take it under it's wing... however as a failed state with a puppet Russian orientated government it suits Putin perfectly.

The goal is to stop Ukraine moving towards the West, not to make it a part of Russia.

Crimea is slightly different being of large strategic value to the Russians, it will not be returned to Ukraine, even if a puppet government is installed.

Agreed. Ukraine is the buffer between the West and Russia. The DMZ if you like. It is now the militarised zone. The Russian have not forgotten the lessons of WWII or the napoleonic wars, space gives you time and Winter, which mean survival.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 20th February 10:27

[Chest Rockwell]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

If Putin wanted the whole of Ukraine, he would have it now or 12 months ago, remember Crimea. Rolling tanks into Ukraine is relatively easy, it is perfect tank country with air superiority. It is so flat you can see the curvature of the earth.

I thought he was this blood thirsty crazy autistic man!

Roll the tanks in and be done with it, worked for George W Bush and ol' Tony
Blair in any case.

I agree with that, he's doing exactly what we're doing in Syria, fighting via proxy. Seems OK for us to bomb Assad, ISIS or whoever side the EU and NATO has switched to.

As for the Crimea, it's the home of the Russia Black Sea Fleet, they didn't have to invade because they were already there. Also, the EU supporting Ukrainians, the ones who toppled their own elected government, were making noises about how they would demand the Russians to leave Crimea. It just wasn't going to happen.

Do you think the British military would tolerate a coup in Cyprus where the leaders demand the Brits to leave the sovereign areas? And speaking of Cyprus, funny how we stood by and allowed the Turks to invade and occupy half of that island? And to this day they are still there.

[Charlie1986]

what would happen if a British aircraft used force to get a Russian aircraft out of British airspace or Area of operation? would the RAF or French do it or would the RAF just let it be then summon the Russian ambassador while the French head home with there tails between there legs?

Does Putin want this with all the recently escalations or he just trying to show his hand?

Would they sink a sub found in British waters or force a sub up near British water?

Answers on a postcard please gents

[scherzkeks]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Some quick questions.

Would this be with or without my violent neo-nazi comrades to enforce my will? Do I have several billion with which to promote my version of democracy?

My view is it is a toxic mix of creating and funding the atmosphere which to achieve revolution, and matters getting out of control, both cock-up and conspiracy.

I have lived through a period where revolution or a peaceful transition is balanced on a knife edge, where you do not know what you will wake up to the next morning.A single spark could have tipped it into war. The shootings in Ukraine were that spark in this case. The shootings which seem to have more to them than meets the eye. Remarkably similar to the events in Venezuela.

I look at attempted or successful government change has been undertaken in the last 70 years and the similarities between Ukraine, Venezuela, Iran X2, Iraq x2, DRC, Vietnam, Brazil, Ghana Chile, Syria, Nicaragua and Cuba to name a few, is just too much of a coincidence.

The project for a new American Century spelled it out in easy to read clarity.

[beckerman]

Charlie1986 said:

what would happen if a British aircraft used force to get a Russian aircraft out of British airspace or Area of operation? would the RAF or French do it or would the RAF just let it be then summon the Russian ambassador while the French head home with there tails between there legs?

Does Putin want this with all the recently escalations or he just trying to show his hand?

Would they sink a sub found in British waters or force a sub up near British water?

Answers on a postcard please gents

Back in November, there was in all likelihood a Russian mini submarine operating within the Stockholm archipelago. It was hunted for several days but nothing was found. The question was asked about what to do with it if it was cornered - the answer was that the military were authorized to force it to the surface using whatever means necessary. Unreasonable? I don't think so.

How would you react if there was a suspicion of something similar happening in the Thames Estuary or the Clyde?

Re. the bombers, operating irresponsibly (i.e. without transponders) outside sovereign airspace is one thing. A Bear violating sovereign airspace and failing to turn around when challenged would be something else and would probably not end well. :-/

[Langweilig]

From the MSN News. Looks like we should surrender right now.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britain-canno...

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Chest Rockwell said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

If Putin wanted the whole of Ukraine, he would have it now or 12 months ago, remember Crimea. Rolling tanks into Ukraine is relatively easy, it is perfect tank country with air superiority. It is so flat you can see the curvature of the earth.

I thought he was this blood thirsty crazy autistic man!

Roll the tanks in and be done with it, worked for George W Bush and ol' Tony
Blair in any case.

Do you think the British military would tolerate a coup in Cyprus where the leaders demand the Brits to leave the sovereign areas? And speaking of Cyprus, funny how we stood by and allowed the Turks to invade and occupy half of that island? And to this day they are still there.

Good point, the West has a selective morality, complete outrage at Putin's actions and China's actions. There is acceptance and encouragement for the invasion and destruction of Iraq, bombing and destruction of Libya, the support for and funding of the destruction of Syria.

The violent suppression of democracy in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, exporting and funding of fundamentalist terrorists from Saudi Arabia. Violation of numerous sovereign nations with drone attacks and bombing. Secret torture facilities around the world, perpetual detention and torture without trial.

The really scary thing is, this list only covers the last 10 years.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 20th February 13:53

[AngryPartsBloke]

Langweilig said:

From the MSN News. Looks like we should surrender right now.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britain-canno...

Bulk of NATO Between us and them, not really worried.

Even through the Cold war they had superior numbers. It's not relevant because it won't ever come to anything

[DMN]

Langweilig said:

From the MSN News. Looks like we should surrender right now.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britain-canno...

Millitary top brass in gives us some more cash please shocker.

[2013BRM]

DMN said:

Langweilig said:

From the MSN News. Looks like we should surrender right now.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britain-canno...

Millitary top brass in gives us some more cash please shocker.

speaking as an ex Forces bod with friends still serving, he is merely telling it like it is, he knows there is no more money coming nor ever likely to be

[AreOut]

knitware said:

So, serious question.

The moneymen of Russia must be plotting to get rid of Putin soon, he's jeopardising their wealth. The moguls have never had it so good, do they really want Putin’s ambitions to get in the way of their freedom, London houses, football clubs etc?

Will Putin be asked, forced, to leave?

umm, it's him who secured them "business climate" and provided them opportunity to earn billions

and they know it

[Octoposse]

skyrover said:

Crimea is slightly different being of large strategic value to the Russians, it will not be returned to Ukraine . . .

Quite so, and if - hypothetically - it ever were, that would be against the wishes of the overwhelming majority of the people who live there. Gibraltar without the apes or the red phone boxes really . . .

[raftom]

Vladimir Putin is a wife beater and six other claims in new documentary

That explains the botox face then

[wc98]

Chest Rockwell said:

Note how during the 'good times' (when Blair and Brown abolished Boom and Bust along with Snow and Ice) we hardly heard anything about Russia? Now that Greece is obviously going to bust the Progressive EU Project right down the middle, along with our house price inflation fuelled FUBAR'd economy plus Oil prices going down the pan (meaning the Saudis may soon be unable to prop up our welfare state) that all we hear is RUSSIA and PUTIN? Add to that the Westminster paedo scandal, the rise of a libertarian party which is taking votes away from CONservatives and LIEbour along with the obvious reality that our economy is going to implode...well there is whole lot of bad news for Cameron and Clegg to cover up. And not to mention the end of US money printing...the good times are ahead...LOL

Bear in mind that the simple reason Hitler opted for war was because the German economy was on the verge of crash, one bigger than the Weimar Republic experienced. The name of the game is to distract the masses, the political class and media class colluding to literally pull the wool over our eyes. Remember, they are people who have literally never had a 'job' in their lives. All they do is talk st, write st yet make nothing of any tangible benefit.

Funny how African dictators are treating their people like shat yet we're not concerned with them, just bad old Putin. In fact, we're so fking stupid that we're crying out for Ebola to come to the UK. At the same time, the Progressives are screaming "Crisis in the NHS" but meanwhile "oh...we're sending some NHS people to help with Ebola, but don't worry, if one gets infected we'll bring 'em back to the UK". So...we have a "Crisis in the NHS" but we can afford to send over some drones to catch Ebola and bring the virus back into the country? Yet most people on this thread believe the shat spouted about Putin??

We're fked!

you should be writing for private eye to be fair i think even the american public are starting to realise the diet of utter st and bks western nations are being fed by their own governments and are losing their appetite for war mongering. possibly why the rhetoric is so strong in this case ,to try and sell another manufactured crisis for us to worry about while they carry on with the process of fking us all over while maintaining a look of faux sincerity.

[hidetheelephants]

Chest Rockwell said:

Oh don't be such a pleb, like NATO doesn't do the same? And again, they were in International Airspace...so why does it even get a mention in the news?

You're batting for the wrong team.

No, NATO don't routinely fly aircraft with transponders off through busy airways; it doesn't matter whether the airspace is international or not, those onboard will still die if there's a mid-air collision. Thus it is newsworthy.

Batting for the wrong team; really?

[QuantumTokoloshi]

hidetheelephants said:

Chest Rockwell said:

Oh don't be such a pleb, like NATO doesn't do the same? And again, they were in International Airspace...so why does it even get a mention in the news?

You're batting for the wrong team.

No, NATO don't routinely fly aircraft with transponders off through busy airways; it doesn't matter whether the airspace is international or not, those onboard will still die if there's a mid-air collision. Thus it is newsworthy.

Batting for the wrong team; really?

The Chinese have complained about the US ELINT aircraft doing the same thing, they had a mid-air collision a few years back with a fighter sent to intercept.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 20th February 17:44

[Halb]

wc98 said:

you should be writing for private eye to be fair i think even the american public are starting to realise the diet of utter st and bks western nations are being fed by their own governments and are losing their appetite for war mongering. possibly why the rhetoric is so strong in this case ,to try and sell another manufactured crisis for us to worry about while they carry on with the process of fking us all over while maintaining a look of faux sincerity.

Hesletine on QT effectively said the same. That overtures should be made to Russia to help them face the real threat of the Muslim issue on Russia's southern borders.

[hidetheelephants]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

The Chinese have complained about the US ELINT aircraft doing the same thing, they had a mid-air collision a few years back with a fighter sent to intercept.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 20th February 17:44

Even by your standards this is a stretch; China isn't a notable foe of NATO and the south china sea isn't really their precinct, but carry on. A P3 being 'bumped' by a PLAAF fast jet isn't quite the same as the potential for a Bear to find itself wearing some poor bugger in a Piper as a bonnet mascot or colliding with a BN Islander flying to or from the Channel Islands.