War with Russia

[isee]

scherzkeks said:

The FAZ article is here. I posted it a related thread at some point

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ashton-telefona...

Oh sorry, my German is almost non-existent now, what's the general gist of it?
What are your thoughts?

[barryrs]

Ultimately we will never really know specifics so to adopt a hand line as to who is to blame feels futile.

Im sure the West will have had a hand in it and likewise the Russians; the truth being somewhere in the middle where they are both equally responsible.

A quick web search of "maidan snipers trained in" gives suggestions of Poland, Nato, Morocco by Serbs & Georgia to name just a few.

My opinion is that the whole issue unfortunately for the Ukrainians is that the conflict reinforces domestic political motives on both sides. The EU will use this to try to stave off the rise of nationalism and anti EU sentiment by rallying round a central cause that requires all member states to unite; and the Russians are stiring up domestic anti EU sentiment in order to maintain the political status quo.

I dont believe that any side wants open conflict and ultimately a resolution will be found however i do believe its a dangerous game that could easily get out of hand.

[scherzkeks]

isee said:

Oh sorry, my German is almost non-existent now, what's the general gist of it?
What are your thoughts?

It discusses whether the snipers were hired by Yanu or the opposition and focuses on the call between the Estonian prime minister Paet and EU foreign policy head Ashton.

The most interesting paragraph was this:

"Die Majdan-Koalition sei nicht gewillt, die Umstände der Todesschüsse zu klären, sagte Paet, das sei besorgniserregend. Damit sei der „Verdacht erhärtet, dass hinter den Scharfschützen nicht Janukowitsch, sondern jemand aus der Koalition gestanden habe“, soll Paet in dem Gespräch am 26. Februar gesagt haben."

States basically that the Maidan coalition was not willing to investigate who was behind the shootings, and this confirmed suspicions that someone from the coalition was.

I'm of the opinion that where there is smoke there is fire. There have been too many revalations and questionable actions and players where the opposition is concerned (particularly the tapped Nuland call). And the Russian actions have to me appeared largely defensive. That this follows the standard US nation-building playbook also doesn't make it any easier to ignore the above.

Edited by scherzkeks on Tuesday 21st April 13:58

[Mojocvh]

Anyway, let's hear it for the "good" guys!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewher...

"Later in the day, Mr Plotnikov gave a news conference to shed more light on what had happened. Because of his "principled position", the mayor said, he was supposed to have been killed in a forest some time between Friday night and Saturday morning. Thanks to swift action by the security services, the would-be killers and those who took out a contract on the mayor have been arrested, Mr Plotnikov told the news conference, adding: "Many thanks to the police for saving my life." The police have simply said that the mayor "has been found" and that "he's alive and well, and is currently with his family"."

[Mr Whippy]

Not done any reading/digging, but what is with the large donations to the Clinton Foundation (Hillary and William) from Ukraine over the years?

Seems a bit weird that of all the donations from places, some of the largest are from Ukraine and it's a current global-political hot spot.

Makes you wonder what is in those 'deleted' emails.

Dave

[Bluebarge]

isee said:

Tass is one of Russia's oldest news services and while I loathe to be linking Russian news-sources for the usual "Russian propaganda init" chant, I struggle to find the same news in the Western media for the same reason I suppose,
Your opinion can be opposite, but it needs to be backed up by logic.

TASS is the Russian govt news agency and has been in no way independent since 1917. The reason this story has not found its way into the Western press is most probably because it is not credible. The Western press is independent of govt. interference and the idea that this story has been suppressed for propaganda reasons by every media outlet in every country in the Western world, whether the USA or Greece or Switzerland is just bonkers.

You seem desperate to find moral equivalence where there is none. Russia has no business sneding troops and equipment into Eastern Ukraine to foment war and instability for its own bizarrely 19c political ends. End of story.

[scherzkeks]

Bluebarge said:

The Western press is independent of govt. interference

Classic.

[Bluebarge]

scherzkeks said:

Bluebarge said:

The Western press is independent of govt. interference

Classic.

And true.

TASS on the other hand.....

[QuantumTokoloshi]

scherzkeks said:

Bluebarge said:

The Western press is independent of govt. interference

Classic.

Classical conditioning more likely.

[scherzkeks]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Classical conditioning more likely.

I just assume it's a wind-up. That or he's a product of small town USA.

[Bluebarge]

scherzkeks said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Classical conditioning more likely.

I just assume it's a wind-up. That or he's a product of small town USA.

Welcome Comrades. You must be fresh from your "The West is Evil - Citizens Awareness Class" as mandated by your freely-elected and liberal Govt.

Honestly chaps, if you seriously believe that every press outlet in every country in the Western World is being leant on to not report the story spouted by TASS then you are certifiably nuts.

If you spent a little more time in the West learning how it works, rather than just trying to make money you can't make at home because you don't have a civilsed economy with a fair justice system, then you might not waste your time here, and take back some ideas that might help Russia grow. However, since you seem to prefer to mutter dark conspiracy theories and assume that the West is richer than you because life's not fair or you just didn't invade enough of your neighbours, then you will be condemned to watch your country slide even further into the mire.

Your economy is now smaller that Spain's FFS - boy, those Russian policies are working well.

[Transmitter Man]

BB,

I wanted to say exactly that early but felt I'd just be wasting my breath.

You'd think PH was an extension of the Oxford Union in the heyday of CND.

Bloody funny.

Phil

[QuantumTokoloshi]

The democratic Ukrainian government, assassinating opposition members. It is odd we do not see that reported in the mainstream "free" media, it just does not fit the good guy narrative.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-20/ron-paul-...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-20/noam-chom...

[skyrover]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

The democratic Ukrainian government, assassinating opposition members. It is odd we do not see that reported in the mainstream "free" media, it just does not fit the good guy narrative.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-20/ron-paul-...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-20/noam-chom...

It is being reported

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/16/us-ukrai...

[scherzkeks]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

The democratic Ukrainian government, assassinating opposition members. It is odd we do not see that reported in the mainstream "free" media, it just does not fit the good guy narrative.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-20/ron-paul-...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-20/noam-chom...

The second link should be required reading.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

scherzkeks said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

The democratic Ukrainian government, assassinating opposition members. It is odd we do not see that reported in the mainstream "free" media, it just does not fit the good guy narrative.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-20/ron-paul-...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-20/noam-chom...

The second link should be required reading.

It should! But it would mean a balanced view point, heaven forbid that breaking out.

[Liokault]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

It should! But it would mean a balanced view point, heaven forbid that breaking out.

Balanced view point. Yes, exactly the term that springs to mind when reading both of those links.

[scherzkeks]

Liokault said:

Balanced view point. Yes, exactly the term that springs to mind when reading both of those links.

The links are meant to be critical. Do you need an explanation on what to do next?

[Mr Whippy]

Bluebarge said:

Honestly chaps, if you seriously believe that every press outlet in every country in the Western World is being leant on to not report the story spouted by TASS then you are certifiably nuts.

It's not about 'not' reporting, it's about the big ones only reporting the 'official' press releases from whoever makes them.

There is so much more to almost every story, but most news today is just sound bytes and superficial summaries.


If you actually want to read in-depth investigative journalism these days, the mainstreams are not the places to go.

Fire up Google and almost all news in relation to any given topic is just another site repeating the same story from somewhere else, which is just a centralised report (not analysis) of a piece of news.



I don't bother reading main news any more because it's just bks to put it bluntly. No back story, rarely comments sections to see if others quick peer review holds the articles to scrutiny, no nothing that leaves you feeling like you can tread back over the build up to events or read more back story events, no nothing to allow you to assure yourself the events as described are correct.

You can't read a BBC article for example, without having complete faith the journalist has done some work themselves... and half of them are all crap. Their tech and science journalists for example are a joke compared to small independent blogging teams. I assume their political and economics guys are much the same vs some dedicated independents.


I read mostly bloggers from all sides. I have loads of them. From tin foil hat nutters to the types who would blindly trust the propaganda spouted by NK.

Read all sides, then make up YOUR OWN MIND!

Dave

[isee]

Mr Whippy said:

It's not about 'not' reporting, it's about the big ones only reporting the 'official' press releases from whoever makes them.

There is so much more to almost every story, but most news today is just sound bytes and superficial summaries.


If you actually want to read in-depth investigative journalism these days, the mainstreams are not the places to go.

Fire up Google and almost all news in relation to any given topic is just another site repeating the same story from somewhere else, which is just a centralised report (not analysis) of a piece of news.



I don't bother reading main news any more because it's just bks to put it bluntly. No back story, rarely comments sections to see if others quick peer review holds the articles to scrutiny, no nothing that leaves you feeling like you can tread back over the build up to events or read more back story events, no nothing to allow you to assure yourself the events as described are correct.

You can't read a BBC article for example, without having complete faith the journalist has done some work themselves... and half of them are all crap. Their tech and science journalists for example are a joke compared to small independent blogging teams. I assume their political and economics guys are much the same vs some dedicated independents.


I read mostly bloggers from all sides. I have loads of them. From tin foil hat nutters to the types who would blindly trust the propaganda spouted by NK.

Read all sides, then make up YOUR OWN MIND!

Dave

Hit the nail on the head with this one Dave!

It's tedious when BBC reports by quoting Guardian, which in turn quotes Reuters, which in turn reports Ria (but only provides the link to the site itself rather than the news bit quoted), which in turn made the story from a fking twitter comment... It is actually true for every mainstream media outlet these days, regardless of bias or agenda. TEDIOUS!