War with Russia

[scherzkeks]

Stephen Cohen on neo-McCarthyism and the Ukraine crisis. Also addresses the trendy propaganda point of Russian Internet "trolls" (and/or continuing US national psychological projection ).

Warning: critical thinking faculties requried.

http://www.thenation.com/article/207689/neo-mccart...

[skyrover]

Ah Stephen Cohen, one of the pre-eminant Putin apologists

http://www.rferl.org/content/stephen-cohen-us-scho...

Tell me something Scherzkeks, would you rather live in the USA and hand out anti-Obama propaganda? Or live in Russia and try the same thing against Putin?

Your not stupid, we all know the answer.

[Octoposse]

skyrover said:

He can only stay in power as long as he keeps the people on side.

For once we agree!

However, that requires him to not allow himself to be pissed on and his country humiliated as Yeltsin was when NATO bombed the crap out of Russia's traditional ally Serbia. I don't normally "do" conspiracy theories, but that Russia would pushback against a putsch in Kiev was so 100% predictable that one can only conclude that this whole confrontation was actively desired in the West.

[skyrover]

Octoposse said:

or once we agree!

However, that requires him to not allow himself to be pissed on and his country humiliated as Yeltsin was when NATO bombed the crap out of Russia's traditional ally Serbia. I don't normally "do" conspiracy theories, but that Russia would pushback against a putsch in Kiev was so 100% predictable that one can only conclude that this whole confrontation was actively desired in the West.

This is the problem as I see it.

The Russian people feel humiliated and victimised, the natural response of course being to "push back" and regain some national pride.

Unfortunately this feeling has been twisted by Putin, giving him legitimacy as long as he stands up to the so called "West"... an enemy which actually was never there.

NATO was a former shadow of itself, increasingly irrelevant Europe moved towards trade and energy integration and the Soviet peril vanished.

What Putin has done is invent a threat which Russia must fight against, thus giving legitimacy to meddling in the "near abroad", countries which until not so long ago were part of the Russian order.

It is a fine excuse, playing into both irrational fears and legitimate concerns over trade and influence.

Alas, there can be no real winners in this shambles, which IMO is only occurring due to one man's greed and self-delusion.

[scherzkeks]

skyrover said:

Ah Stephen Cohen, one of the pre-eminant Putin apologists

Of course, the Ivy-league professor emeritus in Russian studies and history is just another "apologist."

Break down the fallacies in his reasoning in that piece. I require my daily dose of skyrover.

skyrover said:

Your not stupid

Wut?

[skyrover]

scherzkeks said:

skyrover said:

Ah Stephen Cohen, one of the pre-eminant Putin apologists

Of course, the Ivy-league professor emeritus in Russian studies and history is just another "apologist."

Break down the fallacies in his reasoning in that piece. I require my daily dose of skyrover.

Yes...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fo...

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117606/stephen-...

I don't doubt his intelligence, he has certainly found a niche that can earn him a few dollars.

[scherzkeks]

Tasty. Those pesky hackers...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-01/hacked-em...

And related...

http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-...



5 billion

[skyrover]

An interesting article on the so called "troll factory" in St Petersburg

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-age...

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Mojocvh said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Mojocvh said:

I press you again to provide proof of "how dare they do something the UK has done for decades"..

Look up battle of Mirbat: find medal ceremony held 3 years later in secret. Read autobiography of troopers involved in battle, find the death of Fijian trooper withheld from media. A secret war in a foreign country. Suppressed info on casualties.

Does that sound familiar to V Putin at all? Secret war, suppressed casualties from media? I guess only the Russians do it.

Again you avoid qualifying your "decades" statement.

You know, some people who read these threads might start thinking YOU'RE JUST MAKING THINGS UP.

Okay, when was the battle of Mirbat.......... what is the date now..... Ummm...

You quibble about about dates, but you do not quibble on the substantive part of the argument which is the UK government suppressed reports about UK Special forces casualties in secret wars taking place in other countries.

What is V Putin doing? suppressing reports about casualties in secret wars in neighbouring countries. Do you see how they are similar ?

Pot calling the kettle black.

You then have the really interesting topic of Private Military Contractors,(Mercenaries) Armour group, blackwater, Xe and the like. That have no connection to sovereign governments but just happen to supporting the interest of those governments... nothing to see here, move along....

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 3rd June 09:22

[skyrover]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Okay, when was the battle of Mirbat.......... what is the date now..... Ummm...

You quibble about about dates, but you do not quibble on the substantive part of the argument which is the UK government suppressed reports about UK Special forces casualties in secret wars taking place in other countries.

What is V Putin doing? suppressing reports about casualties in secret wars in neighbouring countries. Do you see how they are similar ?

Pot calling the kettle black.

You then have the really interesting of Private Military Contractors,(Mercenaries) Armour group, blackwater, Xe and the like. That have no connection to sovereign governments but just happen to supporting the interest of those governments... nothing to see here, move along....

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 3rd June 09:20

A big difference between small scale surgical operations conducted by special forces doing what they signed up to do and a bloody great regular force, who's families are now not allowed to know the truth of their loves ones deaths or face jail and possibly worse.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

scherzkeks said:

Tasty. Those pesky hackers...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-01/hacked-em...

And related...

http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-...



5 billion

This is all made up, Russian propaganda, the good guys would never do this. Heresy.

[scherzkeks]

skyrover said:

An interesting article on the so called "troll factory" in St Petersburg

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-age...

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks


"The discovery that the US military is developing false online personalities – known to users of social media as "sock puppets" – could also encourage other governments, private companies and non-government organisations to do the same."

Pot meet kettle.

Edited by scherzkeks on Wednesday 3rd June 09:38

[skyrover]

A few big differences.

Scale, funding, lack of legal discourse i.e "you will be disappeared"

[scherzkeks]

skyrover said:

A few big differences.

Scale, funding, lack of legal discourse i.e "you will be disappeared"

They learn from the best.

Maybe we can get the Bellingcat bloggers on to find out if their domestic and international black sites are up to US standards?

[skyrover]

Up to 25% of Russia's federal budget is now a "state secret"

Defense and the related category of national security and law enforcement now eat up 34% of the budget

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-02/...

[Beati Dogu]

It was over 50% during the Soviet Union, but back then they actually made things. Now they just export gas, oil and trouble.

IIRC The most the Americans spent under the Reagan era build up was about 7% of GDP. It's now about 4.5% and dropping.

[Halb]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expenditures_in_the_...

[DMN]

So who will Putin Invade free from western imperialism once Russia is stripped of the World Cup?

[Asterix]

Switzerland?

That would make for interesting news.

Not part of NATO either (although there are cooperation agreements in place).

[skyrover]

It's all kicking off again... big push around the town of Marinka near Donetsk

Possibly a ruse to draw Ukrainian forces away from Mariupol on the South coast?

http://liveuamap.com/