War with Russia
Discussion
Vladimir Putin has rejected proposals for an international tribunal into the MH17 air disaster, in the clearest sign yet that Russia may veto a resolution on the plans at the UN Security Council next week.
The comments came as Russian investigators suggested that the Boeing 777 Jet destroyed over Eastern Ukraine a year ago may have been downed by an air-to-air missile, a theory that has been widely rejected by western experts.
In a telephone conversation with Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, Mr Putin said that establishing an international tribunal to prosecute those behind the downing of Flight MH17 over Ukraine would be “counterproductive” and “premature”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir...
The comments came as Russian investigators suggested that the Boeing 777 Jet destroyed over Eastern Ukraine a year ago may have been downed by an air-to-air missile, a theory that has been widely rejected by western experts.
In a telephone conversation with Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, Mr Putin said that establishing an international tribunal to prosecute those behind the downing of Flight MH17 over Ukraine would be “counterproductive” and “premature”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir...
skyrover said:
Vladimir Putin has rejected proposals for an international tribunal into the MH17 air disaster, in the clearest sign yet that Russia may veto a resolution on the plans at the UN Security Council next week.
The comments came as Russian investigators suggested that the Boeing 777 Jet destroyed over Eastern Ukraine a year ago may have been downed by an air-to-air missile, a theory that has been widely rejected by western experts.
In a telephone conversation with Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, Mr Putin said that establishing an international tribunal to prosecute those behind the downing of Flight MH17 over Ukraine would be “counterproductive” and “premature”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir...
This report from RT has more than a whiff of fiction about it.The comments came as Russian investigators suggested that the Boeing 777 Jet destroyed over Eastern Ukraine a year ago may have been downed by an air-to-air missile, a theory that has been widely rejected by western experts.
In a telephone conversation with Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, Mr Putin said that establishing an international tribunal to prosecute those behind the downing of Flight MH17 over Ukraine would be “counterproductive” and “premature”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir...
http://www.rt.com/news/310039-mh17-israeli-missile...
skyrover said:
Vladimir Putin has rejected proposals for an international tribunal into the MH17 air disaster, in the clearest sign yet that Russia may veto a resolution on the plans at the UN Security Council next week.
The comments came as Russian investigators suggested that the Boeing 777 Jet destroyed over Eastern Ukraine a year ago may have been downed by an air-to-air missile, a theory that has been widely rejected by western experts.
In a telephone conversation with Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, Mr Putin said that establishing an international tribunal to prosecute those behind the downing of Flight MH17 over Ukraine would be “counterproductive” and “premature”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir...
Par for the course.The comments came as Russian investigators suggested that the Boeing 777 Jet destroyed over Eastern Ukraine a year ago may have been downed by an air-to-air missile, a theory that has been widely rejected by western experts.
In a telephone conversation with Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, Mr Putin said that establishing an international tribunal to prosecute those behind the downing of Flight MH17 over Ukraine would be “counterproductive” and “premature”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir...
QuantumTokoloshi said:
I remember, during the build up to the Iraq and Afghan wars, arguing against the same view point.
The absolute unwavering belief that Saddam had to be removed because he posed such a threat to the UK. All 45 minutes of it, WMD, his "to" to Al Qaeda and 9/11. +500 000 people, men, woman and children have died, the country is still a chaotic warzone, with a whole new brand of ISIS crazies, their very existence is owed to our invasion.
The extermination of villages in Afghanistan, 1000s of deaths under the "oops, sorry, we bombed in the wrong place" excuse. This got so bad, even our own installed puppet government told the coalition to stop it!
We accepted the killing of innocents are "the cost of war" perpetrated in our name. A war predicated on lies.
Likewise, the "bombing for peace" campaign in Libya, the manufactured threat Gaddafi posed to his own people, the tenuous justification from a previous UN resolution. The deaths of civilians is just "collateral damage", We need kill them to free them it seems.
You might have noticed the refugees in the Mediterranean? The attacks in Tunisia by crazies trained by our previous "allies" in Libya. The destabilisation of Mali and surrounding countries including the rise of Boko Haram in Nigeria.
If you were on the other side of the fence, seeing this over the last 15 years, what would you do?
John Pilger: Fascism and a new holocaust beckon if we remain silent
I don't really give a sThe absolute unwavering belief that Saddam had to be removed because he posed such a threat to the UK. All 45 minutes of it, WMD, his "to" to Al Qaeda and 9/11. +500 000 people, men, woman and children have died, the country is still a chaotic warzone, with a whole new brand of ISIS crazies, their very existence is owed to our invasion.
The extermination of villages in Afghanistan, 1000s of deaths under the "oops, sorry, we bombed in the wrong place" excuse. This got so bad, even our own installed puppet government told the coalition to stop it!
We accepted the killing of innocents are "the cost of war" perpetrated in our name. A war predicated on lies.
Likewise, the "bombing for peace" campaign in Libya, the manufactured threat Gaddafi posed to his own people, the tenuous justification from a previous UN resolution. The deaths of civilians is just "collateral damage", We need kill them to free them it seems.
You might have noticed the refugees in the Mediterranean? The attacks in Tunisia by crazies trained by our previous "allies" in Libya. The destabilisation of Mali and surrounding countries including the rise of Boko Haram in Nigeria.
If you were on the other side of the fence, seeing this over the last 15 years, what would you do?
John Pilger: Fascism and a new holocaust beckon if we remain silent
t how you dress it up to suit your own agenda. You may also wish to note my previous comments, that have been aired on this forum, on all of the above subjects.
skyrover said:
Vladimir Putin has rejected proposals for an international tribunal into the MH17 air disaster, in the clearest sign yet that Russia may veto a resolution on the plans at the UN Security Council next week.
The comments came as Russian investigators suggested that the Boeing 777 Jet destroyed over Eastern Ukraine a year ago may have been downed by an air-to-air missile, a theory that has been widely rejected by western experts.
In a telephone conversation with Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, Mr Putin said that establishing an international tribunal to prosecute those behind the downing of Flight MH17 over Ukraine would be “counterproductive” and “premature”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir...
Premature? When does he want it then...?The comments came as Russian investigators suggested that the Boeing 777 Jet destroyed over Eastern Ukraine a year ago may have been downed by an air-to-air missile, a theory that has been widely rejected by western experts.
In a telephone conversation with Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, Mr Putin said that establishing an international tribunal to prosecute those behind the downing of Flight MH17 over Ukraine would be “counterproductive” and “premature”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir...
How obvious an admission can you get?
This is a very telling report. It collates all of the evidence we have so far on Russian involvement in Ukraine.
It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
Mojocvh said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
I remember, during the build up to the Iraq and Afghan wars, arguing against the same view point.
The absolute unwavering belief that Saddam had to be removed because he posed such a threat to the UK. All 45 minutes of it, WMD, his "to" to Al Qaeda and 9/11. +500 000 people, men, woman and children have died, the country is still a chaotic warzone, with a whole new brand of ISIS crazies, their very existence is owed to our invasion.
The extermination of villages in Afghanistan, 1000s of deaths under the "oops, sorry, we bombed in the wrong place" excuse. This got so bad, even our own installed puppet government told the coalition to stop it!
We accepted the killing of innocents are "the cost of war" perpetrated in our name. A war predicated on lies.
Likewise, the "bombing for peace" campaign in Libya, the manufactured threat Gaddafi posed to his own people, the tenuous justification from a previous UN resolution. The deaths of civilians is just "collateral damage", We need kill them to free them it seems.
You might have noticed the refugees in the Mediterranean? The attacks in Tunisia by crazies trained by our previous "allies" in Libya. The destabilisation of Mali and surrounding countries including the rise of Boko Haram in Nigeria.
If you were on the other side of the fence, seeing this over the last 15 years, what would you do?
John Pilger: Fascism and a new holocaust beckon if we remain silent
I don't really give a sThe absolute unwavering belief that Saddam had to be removed because he posed such a threat to the UK. All 45 minutes of it, WMD, his "to" to Al Qaeda and 9/11. +500 000 people, men, woman and children have died, the country is still a chaotic warzone, with a whole new brand of ISIS crazies, their very existence is owed to our invasion.
The extermination of villages in Afghanistan, 1000s of deaths under the "oops, sorry, we bombed in the wrong place" excuse. This got so bad, even our own installed puppet government told the coalition to stop it!
We accepted the killing of innocents are "the cost of war" perpetrated in our name. A war predicated on lies.
Likewise, the "bombing for peace" campaign in Libya, the manufactured threat Gaddafi posed to his own people, the tenuous justification from a previous UN resolution. The deaths of civilians is just "collateral damage", We need kill them to free them it seems.
You might have noticed the refugees in the Mediterranean? The attacks in Tunisia by crazies trained by our previous "allies" in Libya. The destabilisation of Mali and surrounding countries including the rise of Boko Haram in Nigeria.
If you were on the other side of the fence, seeing this over the last 15 years, what would you do?
John Pilger: Fascism and a new holocaust beckon if we remain silent
t how you dress it up to suit your own agenda. You may also wish to note my previous comments, that have been aired on this forum, on all of the above subjects.
skyrover said:
This is a very telling report. It collates all of the evidence we have so far on Russian involvement in Ukraine.
It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
I am travelling at the moment, so that should make some interesting reading.It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
QuantumTokoloshi said:
skyrover said:
This is a very telling report. It collates all of the evidence we have so far on Russian involvement in Ukraine.
It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
I am travelling at the moment, so that should make some interesting reading.It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
Mojocvh said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
skyrover said:
This is a very telling report. It collates all of the evidence we have so far on Russian involvement in Ukraine.
It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
I am travelling at the moment, so that should make some interesting reading.It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Mojocvh said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
skyrover said:
This is a very telling report. It collates all of the evidence we have so far on Russian involvement in Ukraine.
It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
I am travelling at the moment, so that should make some interesting reading.It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
Yep, thought so, thick as s
t.A CLUE
Any neurons moving yet?
Edited by Mojocvh on Monday 20th July 23:19
skyrover said:
This is a very telling report. It collates all of the evidence we have so far on Russian involvement in Ukraine.
It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
Anybody got the guts to stick a copy of this through the Russian Embassy letterbox...?It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
What a bunch of lying toe-rags.
Cobnapint said:
Anybody got the guts to stick a copy of this through the Russian Embassy letterbox...?
What a bunch of lying toe-rags.
Propaganda meets thick bloke. More news at 10.What a bunch of lying toe-rags.
A side note and related to this "report", still makes me chuckle that one of America's greatest whistleblowers has found sanctuary in Russia. Must really burn the authoritarians in charge today.
Edited by scherzkeks on Tuesday 21st July 12:57
scherzkeks said:
Propaganda meets thick bloke. More news at 10.
A side note and related to this "report", still makes me chuckle that one of America's greatest whistleblowers has found sanctuary in Russia. Must really burn the authoritarians in charge today.
At least American whistleblowers dont turn up dead too often.A side note and related to this "report", still makes me chuckle that one of America's greatest whistleblowers has found sanctuary in Russia. Must really burn the authoritarians in charge today.
Edited by scherzkeks on Tuesday 21st July 12:57
skyrover said:
This is a very telling report. It collates all of the evidence we have so far on Russian involvement in Ukraine.
It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
A more than interesting piece there SR.It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
And to think there were several PH'ers who post here who were caught up with all that 'facists' propaganda of Putin's troll machine.
I better not name them.
They know who they are.
Gullible is an understatement.
RT viewers is a dead cert.
Phil
Transmitter Man said:
skyrover said:
This is a very telling report. It collates all of the evidence we have so far on Russian involvement in Ukraine.
It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
A more than interesting piece there SR.It sticks to the hard facts and is easy to cross check everything.
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
And to think there were several PH'ers who post here who were caught up with all that 'facists' propaganda of Putin's troll machine.
I better not name them.
They know who they are.
Gullible is an understatement.
RT viewers is a dead cert.
Phil
Propaganda or not, of course it includes truths about Russian involvement and Moscow's cover stories that no one believes or is expected to believe. Less convincing than the US painting Cuban markings on A26s, removing engine cowlings and shooting holes in them before popping them back on, and landing 'defecting' planes back in Florida (and tee-ing up Adlai Stevenson to in all good faith pass on the lies to the UN, just like poor old Colin Powell and the ho, ho 'weapons of mass destruction' forty years later) perhaps. Or even Israel trying to assasinate the US ambassador to Lebanon and blame it on Hezbollah, with the US joining in the cover up.
The article is, however, breathtakingly wrong when it suggests that Putin 'needs' the war. He needs it like he needs genital warts - what he needed and wanted was a deal straight after the annexation of Crimea. It was US and EU encouragement of Kiev not to cut a deal - which wouls have appeared as a masterstroke victory for Putin - that led to war. And a war that Kiev at first only had the means to wage with artillery and air strikes, predominantly against civilian targets. Every Russian countermove since then has been reactive - including providing air defence systems and the tragedy resulting from that.
It also (as far as I could tell in a quick scan) ignores the role of the EU and US in originally fomenting the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Ukraine, ignores the participation of fascist elements in the coup, ignores the real sense of fear of ethnic Russians in Ukraine, and ignores any suggestion that the concept of self determination of peoples may apply to Crimeans - and others.
Octoposse said:
ell, briefly (have the ironing waiting!), but having scanned the self proclaimed 'Independent Expert Report' it's clearly propaganda itself. US based . . . one can specualte on its funding . . .
The authors are prominent public figures in Russia, you may go look them up. Boris Nemtsov needs no introduction. Octoposse said:
Propaganda or not, of course it includes truths about Russian involvement and Moscow's cover stories that no one believes or is expected to believe. Less convincing than the US painting Cuban markings on A26s, removing engine cowlings and shooting holes in them before popping them back on, and landing 'defecting' planes back in Florida (and tee-ing up Adlai Stevenson to in all good faith pass on the lies to the UN, just like poor old Colin Powell and the ho, ho 'weapons of mass destruction' forty years later) perhaps. Or even Israel trying to assasinate the US ambassador to Lebanon and blame it on Hezbollah, with the US joining in the cover up.
So your argument against the Russians invading their neighbours and trampling over every international law and treaty they signed up to is "well look what the US and Israel did once upon a time"? Try that in a court of law.Octoposse said:
The article is, however, breathtakingly wrong when it suggests that Putin 'needs' the war. He needs it like he needs genital warts - what he needed and wanted was a deal straight after the annexation of Crimea. It was US and EU encouragement of Kiev not to cut a deal - which wouls have appeared as a masterstroke victory for Putin - that led to war. And a war that Kiev at first only had the means to wage with artillery and air strikes, predominantly against civilian targets. Every Russian countermove since then has been reactive - including providing air defence systems and the tragedy resulting from that.
The fact Putin could not keep his hands off Ukraine and Crimea has nothing to do with any so called "Western Plot". Russia was looking to annex Crimea even way back when it had a Moscow friendly government installed in Kiev. This is common knowledge.... and to call Russian actions "reactive"?.... they were rolling tanks ad APC's across the Donbass before the West even knew what was going on. The BUK used to shoot down the airliner was brought in to nullify the Ukrainian air force.
Octoposse said:
It also (as far as I could tell in a quick scan) ignores the role of the EU and US in originally fomenting the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Ukraine, ignores the participation of fascist elements in the coup, ignores the real sense of fear of ethnic Russians in Ukraine, and ignores any suggestion that the concept of self determination of peoples may apply to Crimeans - and others.
This is because the role of the EU and US is not clearly defined, i.e there really isn't much of one. The Ukrainian people are not zombies, they can decide for themselves. Of course this is the antithesis of the Muscovite mindset.Did the Crimean subject really have a choice? The election was not free, nor fair and is not recognised as a result. Even the guy who organised it admitted it was a farce.
As for "real fear" in ethnic Russian's in Ukraine?
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/06/26/why-ukrainians...
Even the ethnic Russian's in Eastern Ukraine are starting to use Ukrainian more as they would rather not be "liberated" by their brothers in Moscow.
Edited by skyrover on Wednesday 22 July 07:21
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