War with Russia

[skyrover]

JagLover said:

When it comes to places like Belo-Russia or Ukraine the picture is far less clear. There was never before 1991 an independent country for either one of them. If we look back earlier into history all three peoples began as one in the Mediaeval civilisation of the Kievan Rus. Belarus simply means "white Russia" and Ukraine simply means "border frontier". I.E. a part of the lands of the Rus making up their border with other peoples.

Yes I am aware of the Kievan Rus

JagLover said:

They now consider themselves separate peoples but let us not pretend these were distinct nation states and any Russians present in 1991 were interlopers. By 1700 Russia held the lands east of the Dineper and Kiev and the PLC held the lands west. Within the lands held by Russia, that became modern day Ukraine, were indeed people's who considered themselves distinct from Russia, whether that be the Cossack peoples or what have you but there were also many Russian speakers who came to populate lands that had been left empty by Horde and Tartar raids. If they are interlopers please enlighten me who they stole the land from?

When we look at the conflict in East Ukraine that is what we are talking of. Lands settled by Russians that were part of the an internal administrative unit, that later became a separate nation upon the collapse of the USSR.

I think the simplest way to look at it would be to gauge how the people who live there today feel.

The fact is like any relationship, the use of force will only push the other party away.

Russian speaking Ukrainians who once felt inclined toward Russia are now turning their back.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/06/26/why-ukrainians...

[JagLover]

skyrover said:

I think the simplest way to look at it would be to gauge how the people who live there today feel.

The fact is like any relationship, the use of force will only push the other party away.

Russian speaking Ukrainians who once felt inclined toward Russia are now turning their back.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/06/26/why-ukrainians...

That has no polling data about how people in the east feel?

and I don't think you understood my post if you are still talking exclusively about "Russian speaking Ukrainians"

Russia may be heavily involved in the East of Ukraine now but it began as a local uprising by Russians seeking independence from Kiev and tens of thousands of "Russian speaking Ukrainians" have no doubt been delighted to be shelled and bombed by the government in Kiev as a result in a conflict that has killed over 3,000 civilians.

In fact the civilian casualties now exceed the number cited in your previous post that justified the NATO bombing campaign in Kosovo.

For those who take their view of this only from the British media, not to worry about this, as these were "bad" civilians.

[skyrover]

JagLover said:

That has no polling data about how people in the east feel?

and I don't think you understood my post if you are still talking exclusively about "Russian speaking Ukrainians"

Russia may be heavily involved in the East of Ukraine now but it began as a local uprising by Russians seeking independence from Kiev and tens of thousands of "Russian speaking Ukrainians" have no doubt been delighted to be shelled and bombed by the government in Kiev as a result in a conflict that has killed over 3,000 civilians.

It began as Russian st stirring. There was no local support for an uprising, even in heavily Russian speaking Crimea as admitted by Igor Girkin, the bloke in charge of the Russian operation.

You can listen to his interview if you so wish.

http://uatoday.tv/politics/girkin-russian-lsquo-li...

Without Putin's little green men, there would have been no war, no so called "uprising". Putin and his supporters have blood on their hands.

JagLover said:

In fact the civilian casualties now exceed the number cited in your previous post that justified the NATO bombing campaign in Kosovo.

For those who take their view of this only from the British media, not to worry about this, as these were "bad" civilians.

The OSCE's job is to monitor ceasefire violations as agreed in Minsk. The Proof is in the pudding.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/osce-patro...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-...

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/09/uk-ukrain...

http://www.unian.info/world/1004495-insurgents-bri...

[QuantumTokoloshi]

skyrover said:

JagLover said:

That has no polling data about how people in the east feel?

and I don't think you understood my post if you are still talking exclusively about "Russian speaking Ukrainians"

Russia may be heavily involved in the East of Ukraine now but it began as a local uprising by Russians seeking independence from Kiev and tens of thousands of "Russian speaking Ukrainians" have no doubt been delighted to be shelled and bombed by the government in Kiev as a result in a conflict that has killed over 3,000 civilians.

It began as Russian st stirring. There was no local support for an uprising, even in heavily Russian speaking Crimea as admitted by Igor Girkin, the bloke in charge of the Russian operation.

You can listen to his interview if you so wish.

http://uatoday.tv/politics/girkin-russian-lsquo-li...

Without Putin's little green men, there would have been no war, no so called "uprising". Putin and his supporters have blood on their hands.

JagLover said:

In fact the civilian casualties now exceed the number cited in your previous post that justified the NATO bombing campaign in Kosovo.

For those who take their view of this only from the British media, not to worry about this, as these were "bad" civilians.

The OSCE's job is to monitor ceasefire violations as agreed in Minsk. The Proof is in the pudding.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/osce-patro...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-...

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/09/uk-ukrain...

http://www.unian.info/world/1004495-insurgents-bri...

It had nothing, at all, to do with $+5 billion dollars worth of Victoria "fk the EU" Nuland and Co "promoting democracy" money (Shall we ask Guatemala, Columbia, Chile, Vietnam, Congo, Venezuela, Iran, Indonesia, Panama etc. If they also had the "pro" democracy money before the violent overthrow of elected governments) or perhaps the violent Western Ukrainian Neo-Nazi nationalists might have had something to do with it?

I wonder if the violent suppression of rights, intimidation and silencing of Eastern Ukrainian representatives by the "elected" or is that "selected" Ukrainian government might have had something to do with this?

Nope, they are all blameless in this. The Russians were involved in this mess, but there is more than enough blame which needs sharing around, not to forget our own woefully inept EU foreign minister baroness Ashton.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 2nd September 11:50

[skyrover]

I don't see EU tanks rolling across the plains of Donbas.

I don't see NATO soldiers holding Russian's or Ukrainians at gunpoint

You give the EU too much credit, and the Ukrainians not enough. The Russian's planned to sieze Crimea years ago, it had nothing to do with any supposed EU plot. They simply wanted "their" territory back.

http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=ba859d17...

Notice the date of the article

To hell with any treaties we might have signed eh?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_...

Edited by skyrover on Wednesday 2nd September 12:19

[scherzkeks]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

It had nothing, at all, to do with $+5 billion dollars worth of Victoria "fk the EU" Nuland and Co "promoting democracy" money (Shall we ask Guatemala, Columbia, Chile, Vietnam, Congo, Venezuela, Iran, Indonesia, Panama etc. If they also had the "pro" democracy money before the violent overthrow of elected governments) or perhaps the violent Western Ukrainian Neo-Nazi nationalists might have had something to do with it?

Don't remind him of the root cause; he gets prickly.

Anyways, you left out the military support that continues to fuel the fighting in the east. Academi commandos have been put to good use since the beginning, despite the US claiming it sent no troops. This Spiegel piece was of course from 2014; we know how much its ramped up since.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-kris...



As stated in a previous post, the propaganda bandied about here is psychological projection on a national level. Accuse your enemy of doing what you are doing, and dominate the media spectrum with that message. Given that the MM is owned by 6 media conglomerates this is quite easy, and especially effective on those who can do no more than regurgitate the headlines they are fed.

http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporation...

[skyrover]

scherzkeks said:

Anyways, you left out the military support that continues to fuel the fighting in the east. Academi commandos have been put to good use since the beginning, despite the US claiming it sent no troops. This Spiegel piece was of course from 2014; we know how much its ramped up since.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-kris...

Fuel the fighting? Roughly one Russian convoy a week I think is the current rate.

scherzkeks said:

As stated in a previous post, the propaganda bandied about here is psychological projection on a national level. Accuse your enemy of doing what you are doing, and dominate the media spectrum with that message. Given that the MM is owned by 6 media conglomerates this is quite easy, and especially effective on those who can do no more than regurgitate the headlines they are fed.

Yes... the "western" news organisation's, all in the pocket of the "global order", unlike that bastion of truth RT.

At least RT reporters like to get close to the story, I will give them that.







https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK?ref_src=twsrc%5Ego...

[Cobnapint]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Cobnapint said:

If I remeMber rightly, tHere was no real need for SAMs in Eastern Ukraine either 17.

Only if the population of Eastern Ukraine did not mind being bombed by the Ukrainian airforce that is.

You mean the 'holidaying or lost' Russian Army population....

[JagLover]

Cobnapint said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Cobnapint said:

If I remeMber rightly, tHere was no real need for SAMs in Eastern Ukraine either 17.

Only if the population of Eastern Ukraine did not mind being bombed by the Ukrainian airforce that is.

You mean the 'holidaying or lost' Russian Army population....

Given civilian casualties of 3,600 it is fair to say that a large number of bombs and shells haven't fallen on 'holidaying or lost' Russian Army personnel.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

skyrover said:

scherzkeks said:

Anyways, you left out the military support that continues to fuel the fighting in the east. Academi commandos have been put to good use since the beginning, despite the US claiming it sent no troops. This Spiegel piece was of course from 2014; we know how much its ramped up since.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-kris...

Fuel the fighting? Roughly one Russian convoy a week I think is the current rate.

scherzkeks said:

As stated in a previous post, the propaganda bandied about here is psychological projection on a national level. Accuse your enemy of doing what you are doing, and dominate the media spectrum with that message. Given that the MM is owned by 6 media conglomerates this is quite easy, and especially effective on those who can do no more than regurgitate the headlines they are fed.

Yes... the "western" news organisation's, all in the pocket of the "global order", unlike that bastion of truth RT.

At least RT reporters like to get close to the story, I will give them that.







https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK?ref_src=twsrc%5Ego...

Not sure about your point here? He is a journalist working for RT and ?

Perhaps he is really a Vlad P clone, the first of a horde of a genetically created mutants planning to take over the world... Muhahahahahaha. Ooops, Sorry getting confused with Fox TV there.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 2nd September 13:12

[scherzkeks]

This would make a great postcard.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

JagLover said:

Cobnapint said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Cobnapint said:

If I remeMber rightly, tHere was no real need for SAMs in Eastern Ukraine either 17.

Only if the population of Eastern Ukraine did not mind being bombed by the Ukrainian airforce that is.

You mean the 'holidaying or lost' Russian Army population....

Given civilian casualties of 3,600 it is fair to say that a large number of bombs and shells haven't fallen on 'holidaying or lost' Russian Army personnel.

Details mere details.

[Sarcasm]

The Ukranian Airforce takes great care in ensuring it limits civilian casualties, by only dropping pin point accurate, high tech, laser guided, smart munitions on seperatists anyone from Eastern Ukraine.

[/Sarcasm]

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 2nd September 13:43

[skyrover]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Details mere details.

[Sarcasm]

The Ukranian Airforce takes great care in ensuring it limits civilian casualties, by only dropping pin point accurate, high tech, laser guided, smart munitions on seperatists anyone from Eastern Ukraine.

[/Sarcasm]

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 2nd September 13:43

And if Russia had not meddled/actively got involved there would be no munitions at all.

[Zod]

scherzkeks said:

Don't remind him of the root cause; he gets prickly.

Anyways, you left out the military support that continues to fuel the fighting in the east. Academi commandos have been put to good use since the beginning, despite the US claiming it sent no troops. This Spiegel piece was of course from 2014; we know how much its ramped up since.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-kris...

The first comment to that article says it all:

5michael5 said:

1. Gerüchte über Gerüchte

Bitte liefern Sie uns verifizierte Hintergrund infos. Oder ist dies eine naive Vorstellung? Weil?

For non-German speakers:

"Rumour upon rumour.

Please give us verified background info. Or is this just a naive invention? Because?"

This is very poor journalism from the Spiegel. The story is sourced to Bild am Sonntag (the equivalent of the Sun on Sunday), which "referred to Secret Service information, to a denial by Blackwater that it was involved and to a Russian state news agency claim that Blackwater was involved."

It ends with, "Eine Bestätigung für den Bericht gibt es bisher nicht." There is as yet no confirmation for this report.

I now await a reply from Scherzeks reminiscent of the sort of discussion that took place in people's rooms after a few hours in the bar in my first term at university.

[skyrover]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Not sure about your point here? He is a journalist working for RT and ?

Gonzo journalism at it's finest, but without Hunter S Thompson's charisma

[scherzkeks]

Zod said:

For non-German speakers:

"Rumour upon rumour.

Please give us verified background info. Or is this just a naive invention? Because?"

This is very poor journalism from the Spiegel.

A commenter has clamied the story is rumor. Well that settles that.



P.s. -- you are a non-German speaker.

[Cobnapint]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Details mere details.

[Sarcasm]

The Ukranian Airforce takes great care in ensuring it limits civilian casualties, by only dropping pin point accurate, high tech, laser guided, smart munitions on seperatists anyone from Eastern Ukraine.

[/Sarcasm]

[Fact]

The Russian army takes great care in disguising it's armour and military presence in E Ukraine by lying continuously, and if Putin hadn't started all this sh*t in the first place then we wouldn't have to be discussing casualties of any kind.

[Fact]

[QuantumTokoloshi]

skyrover said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Not sure about your point here? He is a journalist working for RT and ?

Gonzo journalism at it's finest, but without Hunter S Thompson's charisma

Aah right, just like the embedded journalists during the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan then?

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Cobnapint said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Details mere details.

[Sarcasm]

The Ukranian Airforce takes great care in ensuring it limits civilian casualties, by only dropping pin point accurate, high tech, laser guided, smart munitions on seperatists anyone from Eastern Ukraine.

[/Sarcasm]

[Fact]

The Russian army takes great care in disguising it's armour and military presence in E Ukraine by lying continuously, and if Putin hadn't started all this sh*t in the first place then we wouldn't have to be discussing casualties of any kind.

[Fact]

Fact? Possibly, supporting and promoting the violent destabilisation of an elected government may also have a small part to play.

[Zod]

scherzkeks said:

Zod said:

For non-German speakers:

"Rumour upon rumour.

Please give us verified background info. Or is this just a naive invention? Because?"

This is very poor journalism from the Spiegel. I'm

A commenter has clamied the story is rumor. Well that settles that.



P.s. -- you are a non-German speaker.

As usual, you address none of the points. Lack of any sources other than tabloid newspaper reports based on "secret service info" for instance?

Your attempt at scornful insult is as risible as ever. I wonder how I managed to do my job for years in Germany without speaking the language.


ETA for actual non-German speakers, Scherzkeks' forum name strongly suggests he/she is purely here to troll.