War with Russia
Discussion
matsoc said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Like the "closer to Europe" attempts in 1940 or 1914 or 1853 or 1812 ? Perhaps the Russians are not so keen on that, and spilled the blood of 35 million people to not have that happen, in one war alone. Do you think this time is any different? Barring having vast stock of insta-glow in the dark party poppers to spread around.
Putin maybe a barsteward, but he is the Russian Barsteward and that is the way they like it. The West (NATO and Co.) has forgotten how to deal with a peer opponent in the last 30 years, both militarily and geopolitically, having mostly played in the middle East. Ukraine was the first serious foray into the Russian backyard, excluding the Georgian sideshow, since the fall of the USSR and Putin's coronation.
Russia is a peer opponent and it is unlikely Putin will go away in the short term. What you should be asking is, what comes after Putin? As he may just be the moderate. Imagine a Russian George Dubya Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld or Rove etc. I shudder at the thought.
I know history but time has passed, Europe today is not Germany of the 30s, thank god a war in the middle of Europe is no longer a possibility. Putin maybe a barsteward, but he is the Russian Barsteward and that is the way they like it. The West (NATO and Co.) has forgotten how to deal with a peer opponent in the last 30 years, both militarily and geopolitically, having mostly played in the middle East. Ukraine was the first serious foray into the Russian backyard, excluding the Georgian sideshow, since the fall of the USSR and Putin's coronation.
Russia is a peer opponent and it is unlikely Putin will go away in the short term. What you should be asking is, what comes after Putin? As he may just be the moderate. Imagine a Russian George Dubya Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld or Rove etc. I shudder at the thought.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 30th September 21:14
And the world is changed. Russia should join NATO to counterbalance China.
Russia had more killed in one battle, than the USA, UK and Commonwealth nations did in the entire Second World War, that tends to stick in a societies consciousness somewhat.
Russia joining NATO is a good concept, but then fermenting unrest on its borders or shooting down its planes tends to make nations skeptical about potential "Allies" intentions.
I wonder how America would react, if Russia promoted its own brand of "democracy" in Mexico or Cuba? The bay of pigs was the result.
Iraq is wonderfully democratic now, air dropped explosive democracy, just like Libya and Afghanistan.
Israel says never again, and Russia has the same view.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Saturday 1st October 10:45
QuantumTokoloshi said:
There is currently a war in Europe, in the Ukraine, and that is perhaps why the Russians are nervous, considering the history and death toll when Western Europe decides to venture East.
Well, war in Europe...there are skirmishes between an army of an economically failed country, Ukraine, and rebels backed up by Russia. Ukraine may be not geographically distant but it has little to do with the EUQuantumTokoloshi said:
Russia joining NATO is a good concept, but then fermenting unrest on its borders or shooting down its planes tends to make nations skeptical about potential "Allies" intentions.
Well, it has been one military plane repeatadely violating airspace near a conflict zone and it was taken down by Turkey military, a country that some time after endured a coup d'etat with military involved, not exactly a western democracy...And the 300 dead flying over Ukraine? That weapon came from Russian border...
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Russia joining NATO is a good concept, but then fermenting unrest on its borders or shooting down its planes tends to make nations skeptical about potential "Allies" intentions.
When change is a brewin', remember: to ferment is to cause a chemical change to food or drink, like turning grapes into wine, but to foment is to stir up trouble, like turning a group of people into an angry mob.Einion Yrth said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Russia joining NATO is a good concept, but then fermenting unrest on its borders or shooting down its planes tends to make nations skeptical about potential "Allies" intentions.
When change is a brewin', remember: to ferment is to cause a chemical change to food or drink, like turning grapes into wine, but to foment is to stir up trouble, like turning a group of people into an angry mob.Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Saturday 1st October 19:10
Cobnapint said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Iraq is wonderfully democratic now, air dropped explosive democracy, just like Libya and Afghanistan.
That's three times you've used that analogy, and on all three occasions it has misrepresented the real situation.QuantumTokoloshi said:
Cobnapint said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Iraq is wonderfully democratic now, air dropped explosive democracy, just like Libya and Afghanistan.
That's three times you've used that analogy, and on all three occasions it has misrepresented the real situation.40 million Russians take part in training exercise.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1907902/russia-holds...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1907902/russia-holds...
dudleybloke said:
40 million Russians take part in training exercise.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1907902/russia-holds...
What a prick.https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1907902/russia-holds...
AreOut said:
yeah, instead of just giving his country on a plate to western powers I agree what a prick
b
ks... he is the instigator of all this nonsense. He is the one dragging his country and the world back into the cold war, thriving on ever increasing Russian paranoia as he justifies his increasing grip on power.Western countries were quite happy to throw their armed forces to the dogs in pursuit of ever more expensive social welfare. Ultimately they are now being forced to spend when quite frankly nobody has the cash to do so.
Putin and his gangster government are in short, utter scumbags.
Edited by skyrover on Tuesday 4th October 17:00
skyrover said:
bks... he is the instigator of all this nonsense. He is the one dragging his country and the world back into the cold war, thriving on ever increasing Russian paranoia as he justifies his increasing grip on power.
Western countries were quite happy to throw their armed forces to the dogs in pursuit of ever more expensive social welfare. Ultimately they are now being forced to spend when quite frankly nobody has the cash to do so.
Putin and his gangster government are in short, utter scumbags.
^ Exacty!ks... he is the instigator of all this nonsense. He is the one dragging his country and the world back into the cold war, thriving on ever increasing Russian paranoia as he justifies his increasing grip on power.Western countries were quite happy to throw their armed forces to the dogs in pursuit of ever more expensive social welfare. Ultimately they are now being forced to spend when quite frankly nobody has the cash to do so.
Putin and his gangster government are in short, utter scumbags.
Edited by skyrover on Tuesday 4th October 17:00
Putin is the nut job in the room.
rallycross said:
Oceanic said:
^ Exacty!
Putin is the nut job in the room.
Not true maybe you need to start reading some wider news reporting ie non USA biased reporting .Putin is the nut job in the room.
scherzkeks said:
rallycross said:
Oceanic said:
^ Exacty!
Putin is the nut job in the room.
Not true maybe you need to start reading some wider news reporting ie non USA biased reporting .Putin is the nut job in the room.
skyrover said:
The US isn't the one holding national nuclear drill's against the NATO "boogeyman"
IIRC, they were busy trying to institute no-fly zones in a country they have no right to be in in order to protect some "moderate" jihadists they are supporting. All nearly 3k of the 911 victims must be rolling in their graves.
skyrover said:
AreOut said:
yeah, instead of just giving his country on a plate to western powers I agree what a prick
bks... he is the instigator of all this nonsense. He is the one dragging his country and the world back into the cold war, thriving on ever increasing Russian paranoia as he justifies his increasing grip on power.Western countries were quite happy to throw their armed forces to the dogs in pursuit of ever more expensive social welfare. Ultimately they are now being forced to spend when quite frankly nobody has the cash to do so.
Putin and his gangster government are in short, utter scumbags.
Edited by skyrover on Tuesday 4th October 17:00
So the the utter cluster in Libya was Putin's fault?
Who has been invading multiple countries over the last 16 years, halfway around the world on false pretenses, Destabilising the entire region, resulting in destructive civil wars?
NATO will not move eastwards? Does that statement ring a bell?
Who poured 5 billion dollars into the Ukraine "supporting democracy", much like the gift of democracy that cost 500 000+ lives in Iraq and God knows how many in Libya.
Who held the view of "f@ck the EU"
Yea, perhaps we need to look a little closer to home to find the actual crazies.
scherzkeks said:
skyrover said:
The US isn't the one holding national nuclear drill's against the NATO "boogeyman"
IIRC, they were busy trying to institute no-fly zones in a country they have no right to be in in order to protect some "moderate" jihadists they are supporting. All nearly 3k of the 911 victims must be rolling in their graves.
skyrover said:
scherzkeks said:
skyrover said:
The US isn't the one holding national nuclear drill's against the NATO "boogeyman"
IIRC, they were busy trying to institute no-fly zones in a country they have no right to be in in order to protect some "moderate" jihadists they are supporting. All nearly 3k of the 911 victims must be rolling in their graves.
scherzkeks said:
skyrover said:
scherzkeks said:
skyrover said:
The US isn't the one holding national nuclear drill's against the NATO "boogeyman"
IIRC, they were busy trying to institute no-fly zones in a country they have no right to be in in order to protect some "moderate" jihadists they are supporting. All nearly 3k of the 911 victims must be rolling in their graves.
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