War with Russia
Discussion
toppstuff said:
Russia’s big weakness is its fragile economy.
It is the biggest country in the world in terms of land mass, but their economy is poor and is roughly the same size of Italy’s. Their economy depends on energy sales with an infrastructure that could be easily destroyed.
For political reasons we don’t properly understand, the West only plays with sanctions. Russia is ruled by a bourgeoisie of a few dozen people who could be ruined pretty quickly if the west chose to.
It’s interesting that we generally choose to leave them to it. Probably some conspiracy thing with lizard people and illuminati I guess. Europe’s dependency on Russian gas is no doubt a factor.
Lizards not needed, rich people look after rich people, it's the only real dynamic when flags are used as props.It is the biggest country in the world in terms of land mass, but their economy is poor and is roughly the same size of Italy’s. Their economy depends on energy sales with an infrastructure that could be easily destroyed.
For political reasons we don’t properly understand, the West only plays with sanctions. Russia is ruled by a bourgeoisie of a few dozen people who could be ruined pretty quickly if the west chose to.
It’s interesting that we generally choose to leave them to it. Probably some conspiracy thing with lizard people and illuminati I guess. Europe’s dependency on Russian gas is no doubt a factor.
How could the 'west' ruin Russia though?
Halb said:
Lizards not needed, rich people look after rich people, it's the only real dynamic when flags are used as props.
How could the 'west' ruin Russia though?
Russia’s owners are a few dozen people. How could the 'west' ruin Russia though?
They live and operate globally. Deny them this ability and strip them of their assets , sit back and watch the place unravel.
Never going to happen though.
Cobnapint said:
You keep ignoring the fact that Ukraine was (is) an independent state, but happily accept the notion that Putin has a god given right to march right in and take it for keeps.
given most of the borders around the world were established by the might is right principle at one point or another it might not be a god given right, but putin has the ability and means to do it. i might not like it either but it is the way of the evolution in that part of the world and i don't think sanctions will ever change that.wc98 said:
Cobnapint said:
You keep ignoring the fact that Ukraine was (is) an independent state, but happily accept the notion that Putin has a god given right to march right in and take it for keeps.
given most of the borders around the world were established by the might is right principle at one point or another it might not be a god given right, but putin has the ability and means to do it. i might not like it either but it is the way of the evolution in that part of the world and i don't think sanctions will ever change that.Halb said:
toppstuff said:
Russia’s big weakness is its fragile economy.
It is the biggest country in the world in terms of land mass, but their economy is poor and is roughly the same size of Italy’s. Their economy depends on energy sales with an infrastructure that could be easily destroyed.
For political reasons we don’t properly understand, the West only plays with sanctions. Russia is ruled by a bourgeoisie of a few dozen people who could be ruined pretty quickly if the west chose to.
It’s interesting that we generally choose to leave them to it. Probably some conspiracy thing with lizard people and illuminati I guess. Europe’s dependency on Russian gas is no doubt a factor.
Lizards not needed, rich people look after rich people, it's the only real dynamic when flags are used as props.It is the biggest country in the world in terms of land mass, but their economy is poor and is roughly the same size of Italy’s. Their economy depends on energy sales with an infrastructure that could be easily destroyed.
For political reasons we don’t properly understand, the West only plays with sanctions. Russia is ruled by a bourgeoisie of a few dozen people who could be ruined pretty quickly if the west chose to.
It’s interesting that we generally choose to leave them to it. Probably some conspiracy thing with lizard people and illuminati I guess. Europe’s dependency on Russian gas is no doubt a factor.
How could the 'west' ruin Russia though?
V8 Fettler said:
Stop buying Russian products, engage Russia in an expensive (for Russia) arms race.
Indeed, as I understand it, behind the scenes that's basically how the cold war came to an end, we out-spent the USSR.I think the reason why we don't push back to hard against Putin, is because it's simply "better the devil you know". If we created a power vacuum, someone even more damaging could get in.
As for the journalist, there used to be an un-written rule that spy's were not allowed to pose as journo's. But then, there used to be an un-written rule about no assassinations on foreign territory either and we all know what Russia thinks about that one.
THe USA was in a different place economically in the 80s, before Reagan blew the wad. The USA could well implode if they tried to spend more under Trump, not even getting into the social consequences. And part of the f
ked up situation in Russia now stems from how the USSR imploded and the firesale that drunk Boris had. An arms race would be horrible for the world.
I think the idea above about squeezing the top 8 oligarchs makes for more sense...but as we know, rich people don't like it when rich people are squeezed.
ked up situation in Russia now stems from how the USSR imploded and the firesale that drunk Boris had. An arms race would be horrible for the world.I think the idea above about squeezing the top 8 oligarchs makes for more sense...but as we know, rich people don't like it when rich people are squeezed.
AshVX220 said:
I think the reason why we don't push back to hard against Putin, is because it's simply "better the devil you know". If we created a power vacuum, someone even more damaging could get in.
really? Given his recent record it is difficult to see how any other devil could be worse!?!? I suppose it is possible, but surely a roll of the dice is worth it!Seriously though; it seems to me that a fair part of Putin's actions are based on two factors; he really doesn't care what anyone else thinks; Crimea, shooting down a civil jet, poisonings and other assassinations etc combined with carrot and stick for his own population to 'encourage' the amazing election results he gets to stay in power. He wants his people to look inwards not covetously at the material world beyond his borders; when the Russians on the streets (in enough numbers) see how deluded the world he has built is; outside influence won't matter; there could be another revolution.
AshVX220 said:
But then, there used to be an un-written rule about no assassinations on foreign territory either and we all know what Russia thinks about that one.
Do you not think America or Britain has done that? there have been quite a few assinations conducted on foreign soil by a number of different countries.Everything Putin does is not really for us - it is designed for his home audience.
Do not forget that Putin and maybe 20 other people have stolen everything in Russia. They are every way as detached and corrupt as the bourgeoisie royalty that the Bolsheviks murdered over a hundred years ago.
Survival for Putin depends on a cocktail of things:
1. Nostalgia for the old days
2. Nationalism and a patriotic belief in Mother Russia
3. Paranoia that Russia is threatened by external forces. Note that everyone outside of Russia are labled as fascists. Just to get people thinking about the suffering in the war
4. A focus on conditioning young people. There is a huge pro Putin youth movement.
5. A state controlled media to make sure people only get the “right” news .
It’s like 1900 -1916 all over again.
Do not forget that Putin and maybe 20 other people have stolen everything in Russia. They are every way as detached and corrupt as the bourgeoisie royalty that the Bolsheviks murdered over a hundred years ago.
Survival for Putin depends on a cocktail of things:
1. Nostalgia for the old days
2. Nationalism and a patriotic belief in Mother Russia
3. Paranoia that Russia is threatened by external forces. Note that everyone outside of Russia are labled as fascists. Just to get people thinking about the suffering in the war
4. A focus on conditioning young people. There is a huge pro Putin youth movement.
5. A state controlled media to make sure people only get the “right” news .
It’s like 1900 -1916 all over again.
Halb said:
THe USA was in a different place economically in the 80s, before Reagan blew the wad. The USA could well implode if they tried to spend more under Trump, not even getting into the social consequences. And part of the fked up situation in Russia now stems from how the USSR imploded and the firesale that drunk Boris had. An arms race would be horrible for the world.
I think the idea above about squeezing the top 8 oligarchs makes for more sense...but as we know, rich people don't like it when rich people are squeezed.
Errr the US currently outspends the Russia by a factor of 9 - 1.ked up situation in Russia now stems from how the USSR imploded and the firesale that drunk Boris had. An arms race would be horrible for the world.I think the idea above about squeezing the top 8 oligarchs makes for more sense...but as we know, rich people don't like it when rich people are squeezed.
It spends around the same as then next nine largest spenders combined.
If Russia wanted to have a conventional conflict with the US it would lose badly most of its kit is old and poorly maintained.
Russia and China are not even coming close to the US and are not planning to try to match them in an "arms race".
China and Russia are trying to enact strategies where they don't have to fight the US's industrial capacity.
The Chinese are looking to deter the US with long range weapons and the Russians are trying to fight below the military horizon with little green men, propaganda and simply picking their battles.
Edited by Talksteer on Monday 3rd December 20:34
Halb said:
THe USA was in a different place economically in the 80s, before Reagan blew the wad. The USA could well implode if they tried to spend more under Trump, not even getting into the social consequences. And part of the fked up situation in Russia now stems from how the USSR imploded and the firesale that drunk Boris had. An arms race would be horrible for the world.
I think the idea above about squeezing the top 8 oligarchs makes for more sense...but as we know, rich people don't like it when rich people are squeezed.
Russia spends a very similar amount on defense as the U.K. ked up situation in Russia now stems from how the USSR imploded and the firesale that drunk Boris had. An arms race would be horrible for the world.I think the idea above about squeezing the top 8 oligarchs makes for more sense...but as we know, rich people don't like it when rich people are squeezed.
Welshbeef said:
Halb said:
THe USA was in a different place economically in the 80s, before Reagan blew the wad. The USA could well implode if they tried to spend more under Trump, not even getting into the social consequences. And part of the fked up situation in Russia now stems from how the USSR imploded and the firesale that drunk Boris had. An arms race would be horrible for the world.
I think the idea above about squeezing the top 8 oligarchs makes for more sense...but as we know, rich people don't like it when rich people are squeezed.
Russia spends a very similar amount on defense as the U.K. ked up situation in Russia now stems from how the USSR imploded and the firesale that drunk Boris had. An arms race would be horrible for the world.I think the idea above about squeezing the top 8 oligarchs makes for more sense...but as we know, rich people don't like it when rich people are squeezed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by...
toppstuff said:
Everything Putin does is not really for us - it is designed for his home audience.
Do not forget that Putin and maybe 20 other people have stolen everything in Russia. They are every way as detached and corrupt as the bourgeoisie royalty that the Bolsheviks murdered over a hundred years ago.
Survival for Putin depends on a cocktail of things:
1. Nostalgia for the old days
2. Nationalism and a patriotic belief in Mother Russia
3. Paranoia that Russia is threatened by external forces. Note that everyone outside of Russia are labled as fascists. Just to get people thinking about the suffering in the war
4. A focus on conditioning young people. There is a huge pro Putin youth movement.
5. A state controlled media to make sure people only get the “right” news .
It’s like 1900 -1916 all over again.
There's a further pillar holding up the edifice, and it's a shaky and increasingly expensive one; keeping people quiet with pensions, the reaction to the changes to pension age etc. must have put the sDo not forget that Putin and maybe 20 other people have stolen everything in Russia. They are every way as detached and corrupt as the bourgeoisie royalty that the Bolsheviks murdered over a hundred years ago.
Survival for Putin depends on a cocktail of things:
1. Nostalgia for the old days
2. Nationalism and a patriotic belief in Mother Russia
3. Paranoia that Russia is threatened by external forces. Note that everyone outside of Russia are labled as fascists. Just to get people thinking about the suffering in the war
4. A focus on conditioning young people. There is a huge pro Putin youth movement.
5. A state controlled media to make sure people only get the “right” news .
It’s like 1900 -1916 all over again.
ts right up Volodya. Suddenly the Narod were showing up on the streets and protesting quite loudly, and in numbers that would not be manageable by breaking a few heads and slinging a few more in jail.llewop said:
AshVX220 said:
I think the reason why we don't push back to hard against Putin, is because it's simply "better the devil you know". If we created a power vacuum, someone even more damaging could get in.
really? Given his recent record it is difficult to see how any other devil could be worse!?!? I suppose it is possible, but surely a roll of the dice is worth it!llewop said:
Seriously though; it seems to me that a fair part of Putin's actions are based on two factors; he really doesn't care what anyone else thinks; Crimea, shooting down a civil jet, poisonings and other assassinations etc combined with carrot and stick for his own population to 'encourage' the amazing election results he gets to stay in power. He wants his people to look inwards not covetously at the material world beyond his borders; when the Russians on the streets (in enough numbers) see how deluded the world he has built is; outside influence won't matter; there could be another revolution.
I think you may be correct eventually the people will revolt - however that is up to them to do not for anyone else to kick start itHalb said:
THe USA was in a different place economically in the 80s, before Reagan blew the wad. The USA could well implode if they tried to spend more under Trump, not even getting into the social consequences. And part of the fked up situation in Russia now stems from how the USSR imploded and the firesale that drunk Boris had. An arms race would be horrible for the world.
I think the idea above about squeezing the top 8 oligarchs makes for more sense...but as we know, rich people don't like it when rich people are squeezed.
For GDP, in 1989 USA = approx x2 USSR, for 2017 USA = approx x10 Russia.ked up situation in Russia now stems from how the USSR imploded and the firesale that drunk Boris had. An arms race would be horrible for the world.I think the idea above about squeezing the top 8 oligarchs makes for more sense...but as we know, rich people don't like it when rich people are squeezed.
An expensive arms race dismantled the Iron Curtain.
Ukraine should be an independent buffer state between Russia and the West, but I doubt if Russia will leave Ukraine alone unless there is the threat of a bloody nose (for Russia).
amgmcqueen said:
What would happen if Putin decided to annex Ukraine?
Lots of speeches at the UN condemning the action.Ambassadors recalled, embassies closed.
Heaviest sanctions ever seen.
Further increase of NATO forces in Eastern Europe.
The net effect on Putin being - zero, and he gets to keep Ukraine.
Oh. And Germany will keep on buying his gas.
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