UK politics if Scotland votes Yes

[///ajd]

pcvdriver said:

Don't blame us (Scotland) for getting a Tory government that you don't want. If you take out every Scottish vote out of the equation - it would not have effected the results of any General Election from the 1950's onwards. The Tory governments we got would have been unchanged and the Labour Governments we have had would not have changed, so it is a fallacy to suggest that Scotland are somehow responsible for keeping the Tories at bay. On the other hand, Scotland on the whole do not vote Tory enough for us to warrant having a Tory Government.

I don't think that will even make the list for things to blame Scotland for.

I don't actually see the rUK letting a Yes vote have too much of a negative impact on rUK. Infact what independence would look like after a rUK negotiation will be so unappealing I suspect the idea would be scrapped.

Don't blame us for exposing the lies and dreams the SNP are selling you, and you won't be disappointed.

Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 23 March 16:32

[Siscar]

pcvdriver said:

Don't blame us (Scotland) for getting a Tory government that you don't want. If you take out every Scottish vote out of the equation - it would not have effected the results of any General Election from the 1950's onwards. The Tory governments we got would have been unchanged and the Labour Governments we have had would not have changed, so it is a fallacy to suggest that Scotland are somehow responsible for keeping the Tories at bay. On the other hand, Scotland on the whole do not vote Tory enough for us to warrant having a Tory Government.

Who says that we don't want a Tory government? There are a lot of people in England who want precisely that.

[pcvdriver]

otolith said:

Most of the pro-independence folks I know are pretty left-wing and think that an independent Scotland will continue to vote for left-ish parties. Actually, when they are solely responsible for funding the state's largesse as well as for choosing its extent, I think there might be a bit of a shift of position.

I stated a few months back on the Scottish Independence forum that the irony that a lot of Tories don't get is that an independent Scotland could actually revive their fortunes in Scotland. It should be remembered that the Tories were some of the loudest opponents of Holyrood's inception in the first place, only to then perfect a volte face and stop bumping their gums, when their number of seats actually increased in Scotland in the elections for Holyrood.

[otolith]

They don't care, partisan considerations aren't the basis of their position. That does seem to be the case with much of the yes vote.

[pcvdriver]

Siscar said:

pcvdriver said:

Don't blame us (Scotland) for getting a Tory government that you don't want. If you take out every Scottish vote out of the equation - it would not have effected the results of any General Election from the 1950's onwards. The Tory governments we got would have been unchanged and the Labour Governments we have had would not have changed, so it is a fallacy to suggest that Scotland are somehow responsible for keeping the Tories at bay. On the other hand, Scotland on the whole do not vote Tory enough for us to warrant having a Tory Government.

Who says that we don't want a Tory government? There are a lot of people in England who want precisely that.

I'd agree entirely with you on that point. Indeed, quite a lot of people South of the border do want precisely that from time to time. I was merely expressing the sentiment that it doesn't matter what the majority in Scotland vote for, as since the 50's the Governments all of the WHOLE UK have got is the one that the majority of people South of the border have voted for.

[Siscar]

pcvdriver said:

Siscar said:

pcvdriver said:

Don't blame us (Scotland) for getting a Tory government that you don't want. If you take out every Scottish vote out of the equation - it would not have effected the results of any General Election from the 1950's onwards. The Tory governments we got would have been unchanged and the Labour Governments we have had would not have changed, so it is a fallacy to suggest that Scotland are somehow responsible for keeping the Tories at bay. On the other hand, Scotland on the whole do not vote Tory enough for us to warrant having a Tory Government.

Who says that we don't want a Tory government? There are a lot of people in England who want precisely that.

I'd agree entirely with you on that point. Indeed, quite a lot of people South of the border do want precisely that from time to time. I was merely expressing the sentiment that it doesn't matter what the majority in Scotland vote for, as since the 50's the Governments all of the WHOLE UK have got is the one that the majority of people South of the border have voted for.

Well right now we'd have a Conservative government and not a coalition without the Scottish influence.

[pcvdriver]

Siscar said:

Well right now we'd have a Conservative government and not a coalition without the Scottish influence.

And isn't that what you'd prefer? I didn't take you to be a supporter of Labour or the Liberals.

[Siscar]

pcvdriver said:

Siscar said:

Well right now we'd have a Conservative government and not a coalition without the Scottish influence.

And isn't that what you'd prefer? I didn't take you to be a supporter of Labour or the Liberals.

What I'd prefer isn't the point, it is that the Scottish vote has influenced the government in the UK.

[pcvdriver]

Siscar said:

pcvdriver said:

Siscar said:

Well right now we'd have a Conservative government and not a coalition without the Scottish influence.

And isn't that what you'd prefer? I didn't take you to be a supporter of Labour or the Liberals.

What I'd prefer isn't the point, it is that the Scottish vote has influenced the government in the UK.

It has only been the last General Election in 2010 that the Scottish vote has come anywhere close since the 50's to influencing the result - for every other General Election if one were to discount the Scottish vote, then successive governments since then would have remained unchanged, so how can you say that Scotland influences the choice of government the rest of the UK have had?

[///ajd]

Siscar said:

What I'd prefer isn't the point, it is that the Scottish vote has influenced the government in the UK.

Which, to be clear, competed disproved your earlier point pcvdriver about Scotland having no influence on Westminster. Its a myth, a total SNP lie to boost support for their bogus independence case. Don't fall for it, we can help you see through it

[IroningMan]

pcvdriver said:

It has only been the last General Election in 2010 that the Scottish vote has come anywhere close since the 50's to influencing the result - for every other General Election if one were to discount the Scottish vote, then successive governments since then would have remained unchanged, so how can you say that Scotland influences the choice of government the rest of the UK have had?

In the immediate past Scotland provided a lot of ministers that we could have done without.

[pcvdriver]

///ajd said:

Which, to be clear, competed disproved your earlier point pcvdriver about Scotland having no influence on Westminster. Its a myth, a total SNP lie to boost support for their bogus independence case. Don't fall for it, we can help you see through it

Here is a link to all the successive governments in the UK since 1802, there's something like a handful of General Elections since then, where the Scottish voting results could/would have affected the results. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdo... - so much for a total myth.

[pcvdriver]

IroningMan said:

In the immediate past Scotland provided a lot of ministers that we could have done without.

I fully concur, both Rifkind and Darling were/are odious little men.

[mph1977]

davepoth said:

In the current climate, an independent Scotland probably means a Conservative majority - Labour are just too weak right now to get a 1997 sort of result. A majority Conservative government will re-draw the electoral boundaries to attempt to "level" the electoral playing field (i.e. tip it in their favour) which will make continued tory governments more likely.

The current electoral boundaries are full of rotten /pocket labour boroughs.

regular reviews that attempt to keep each constituency roughly the same size (barring a few really rural ones) would be far fairer.

[Siscar]

pcvdriver said:

Siscar said:

pcvdriver said:

Siscar said:

Well right now we'd have a Conservative government and not a coalition without the Scottish influence.

And isn't that what you'd prefer? I didn't take you to be a supporter of Labour or the Liberals.

What I'd prefer isn't the point, it is that the Scottish vote has influenced the government in the UK.

It has only been the last General Election in 2010 that the Scottish vote has come anywhere close since the 50's to influencing the result - for every other General Election if one were to discount the Scottish vote, then successive governments since then would have remained unchanged, so how can you say that Scotland influences the choice of government the rest of the UK have had?

OKaaaay, so you are agreeing that in the 2010 election the Scottish electorate did influence the result and then asking me how I can say that Scotland influences the result.

[///ajd]

Siscar said:

OKaaaay, so you are agreeing that in the 2010 election the Scottish electorate did influence the result and then asking me how I can say that Scotland influences the result.

Plus how many times did you get exactly the government you wanted - e.g. Scotland and rUK both voting labour as shown in the example above?

This is just totally not a compelling reason to vote for independence, its just SNP nonsense to try and justify themselves and their cause.

[anonymous-user]

Joey Ramone said:

From what I understand, it almost guarantees a Conservative majority. For now and evermore.

Not true, although it makes it 40 to 50 seats easier the Tories still face a massive uphill battle in England alone.
In 2005 they got roughly 100,000 MORE votes than Labour but won 92 FEWER seats...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/vote2005/html/engla...

[mph1977]

fblm said:

Joey Ramone said:

From what I understand, it almost guarantees a Conservative majority. For now and evermore.

Not true, although it makes it 40 to 50 seats easier the Tories still face a massive uphill battle in England alone.
In 2005 they got roughly 100,000 MORE votes than Labour but won 92 FEWER seats...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/vote2005/html/engla...

which is why in 13 glorious years of NeueArbeit Equality for all they maintained the pocket / rotten borough boundaries ...

[///ajd]

pcvdriver said:

///ajd said:

Which, to be clear, competed disproved your earlier point pcvdriver about Scotland having no influence on Westminster. Its a myth, a total SNP lie to boost support for their bogus independence case. Don't fall for it, we can help you see through it

Here is a link to all the successive governments in the UK since 1802, there's something like a handful of General Elections since then, where the Scottish voting results could/would have affected the results. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdo... - so much for a total myth.

You said earlier "I was merely expressing the sentiment that it doesn't matter what the majority in Scotland vote for, as since the 50's the Governments all of the WHOLE UK have got is the one that the majority of people South of the border have voted for."

It does matter and many times the government has been what most in Scotland have voted for, with many scottish mps in influential positions and much benefit for Scotland. To deny this reality and pretend Scotland has had no influence or benefits from westminster politics is to totally ignore facts, something the SNP does with boring regularity.

Your statement is a myth - perhaps you've listened to it preached at you by the SNP so many times you've started to believe it - well that it is the reason they tell the same lies with such monotony - eventually some do start to believe it.

[Hilts]

I'm absolutely fking sure this has been answered in one of the myriad threads on here.

I've not read it obviously.

But can someone explain in a paragraph or two if Scotland is such a drain (if they are) on the UK that the Govt, and opposition are so desperate to hang on to the Union?

Make your reply wine friendly.