UKIP - The Future - Volume 2

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McWigglebum4th

32,414 posts

203 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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10 Pence Short said:
And when did they become 'UKIP'? 1993, by any chance?

Taking you at your date, that means they've had 23 years and no policies.
for a party with no policies and being lead by a dishonest trougher

They certainly have the tory faithful rather worried.


So they must be doing something right

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
McWigglebum4th said:
10 Pence Short said:
And when did they become 'UKIP'? 1993, by any chance?

Taking you at your date, that means they've had 23 years and no policies.
for a party with no policies and being lead by a dishonest trougher

They certainly have the tory faithful rather worried.


So they must be doing something right
Let's face it Labour party roots formed in 1885 and almost 130 years later they still don't have any policies.
Ref the DanHodges piece posted here a few days ago. Hodges is as solid a Labour supporter as they come and even he admits they don't have any policies.


NicD

3,281 posts

256 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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Guam said:
10 Pence Short said:
steveT350C said:
UKIP want Scotland to remain part of the UK
Why shouldn't Scotland be able to have independence? I thought the ideas behind UKIP were that self determination was all important?
Damn that's weak even for you, the two positions are not mutually exclusive, it is possible to recognise a right for self determination and yet hold a view that a union may be better, in the same way Being anti a federal EU doesn't make one anti European!
Guam,

if you stood for UKIP, I would vote for you!!!!

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

216 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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Guam said:
Damn that's weak even for you, the two positions are not mutually exclusive, it is possible to recognise a right for self determination and yet hold a view that a union may be better, in the same way Being anti a federal EU doesn't make one anti European!
Nonsense. The Scots are being asked whether they are in or out of the British Union.

UKIP want us to be asked if we're in or out of the European Union.

UKIP think we should have the right as the UK to determine our membership of Europe, but not afford that same courtesy to the Scots with the UK.

Why?

NicD

3,281 posts

256 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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10 Pence Short said:
Guam said:
Damn that's weak even for you, the two positions are not mutually exclusive, it is possible to recognise a right for self determination and yet hold a view that a union may be better, in the same way Being anti a federal EU doesn't make one anti European!
Nonsense. The Scots are being asked whether they are in or out of the British Union.

UKIP want us to be asked if we're in or out of the European Union.

UKIP think we should have the right as the UK to determine our membership of Europe, but not afford that same courtesy to the Scots with the UK.

Why?
Nonsense indeed, helpful for you to give a summary for your nonsensical post.
Your last line is not supported by the previous two. Not even close.

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

216 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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NicD said:
Nonsense indeed, helpful for you to give a summary for your nonsensical post.
Your last line is not supported by the previous two. Not even close.
Is the UKIP position not that Scotland should remain in the UK, whereas the UK should leave Europe?

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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In the interest of seeing fair play here is a link that may help 10PS

link

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

216 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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FiF said:
In the interest of seeing fair play here is a link that may help 10PS

link
Thank you, but I think they'd be better used burying UKIP's ill gotten loot pile.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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10 Pence Short said:
FiF said:
In the interest of seeing fair play here is a link that may help 10PS

link
Thank you, but I think they'd be better used burying UKIP's ill gotten loot pile.
Researched the history of any other emergent political parties yet chump.

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

216 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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FiF said:
Researched the history of any other emergent political parties yet chump.
What relevance does that have here?

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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That report is thick end of a year old and the only thing that it states is for the EU is the free trade area.

You don't need federal union to have a free trade area.

The report then goes on to describe reforms required in the EU. Fair enough.

To repeat a question to wwhich nobody has come up with an intelligent answer, what do you do when the EU flatly refuses to reform. This is the probable situation that will be faced. What is the line in the sand?

PugwasHDJ80

7,522 posts

220 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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10 Pence Short said:
NicD said:
Nonsense indeed, helpful for you to give a summary for your nonsensical post.
Your last line is not supported by the previous two. Not even close.
Is the UKIP position not that Scotland should remain in the UK, whereas the UK should leave Europe?
UKIP very happy for Scotland to vote, but very clear that they feel Scotland should vote to stay in the UK.

UKIP would be very happy to get a vote to stay or leave Europe- but that isn't going to happen.

So that's a major difference.

Equating Scotland as part of the UK, and the UK as part of Europe is superficially relevant but I reality a total red herring.

Scotland and UK share 300 years of being the same country, the same language, a shared history of living, fighting, working and building together. The UK and Europe are very very very different beasts- we've spent the last 300 years fighting wars across the continent and beyond. We do not have a common history, common language, or even a similar geography (the channel is a significant barrier to integration, you may not like, but it absolutely is).

That link with Farage speaking about a common EUSSR is spot on- I love Europe, the people in it, but I don't need to be ruled by a European parliament to stop wars happening. You just need to stop the Germans from getting too bored.

McWigglebum4th

32,414 posts

203 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
10 Pence Short said:
Is the UKIP position not that Scotland should remain in the UK, whereas the UK should leave Europe?
No think that they believe scotland shouldn't turn itself into a socialist hellhole and that we should leave the Eu as it is turning into a socialist hellhole

But if you have evidence to show otherwise i'd love to see it

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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10 Pence Short said:
FiF said:
Researched the history of any other emergent political parties yet chump.
What relevance does that have here?
You stated that UkIP or it predecessor had been in existence for 23 years and still didn't have any policies.

I suggest that emergent political parties all have a long period during their formative years when they have to figure out who they are, what they stand for, build the brand, figure out how they are going to do that and then make that first breakthrough into Westminster.

Some never do and indeed that may be UKIP's fate.

I suggested you might like to research their history to see what changes, setbacks and problems they have gone through so far and then compare that to other parties. Clearly you have no wish to do that. Your choice but failure to do so means your original point is rendered as some meaningless waffle to be ignored.

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

216 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
FiF said:
You stated that UkIP or it predecessor had been in existence for 23 years and still didn't have any policies.

I suggest that emergent political parties all have a long period during their formative years when they have to figure out who they are, what they stand for, build the brand, figure out how they are going to do that and then make that first breakthrough into Westminster.

Some never do and indeed that may be UKIP's fate.

I suggested you might like to research their history to see what changes, setbacks and problems they have gone through so far and then compare that to other parties. Clearly you have no wish to do that. Your choice but failure to do so means your original point is rendered as some meaningless waffle to be ignored.
You are making excuses. UKIP have had plenty of time to formulate policies. Before the 2010 election, they had more than 400 pages of them. 400 pages.

Yet now, they don't have any detailed policies.

Saying they have 'only' had 20 plus years to do so does not wash, particularly when they have already produced reams and reams of detailed policies in the past.

santona1937

736 posts

129 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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The big difference IMHO;
In my little corner of SW Europe power had been devolved to the very small local authorities many years ago.
The Mayor here makes all the important decisions regarding planning, construction, jobs, where power lines go, who can open a shop, etc, basically anything that affects local life. Therefore the question of who runs Europe rarely interferes with who runs local life. There is a regional government, but they almost never become involved at sub regional level, and the Mayor does not have to answer to them.
The UK for all that it has Local Authorities is basically run from central administrations who are answerable to those both above and below them, so therefore the ruling powers (The EU) have much more influence.
Other than the colour of the currency it would be difficult to see where Power in Brussels has any effect on life here.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Monday 21st April 2014
quotequote all
10 Pence Short said:
You are making excuses. UKIP have had plenty of time to formulate policies. Before the 2010 election, they had more than 400 pages of them. 400 pages.

Yet now, they don't have any detailed policies.

Saying they have 'only' had 20 plus years to do so does not wash, particularly when they have already produced reams and reams of detailed policies in the past.
And the other parties are also writing their manifestoes for the 2015 election. You have already been told that they are on with this now.

As before the 400 pages malarkey was under the disastrous Lord Pearson leadership when the party was riven.

In terms of the basis of what the party actually stands for as base principle I would argue, as an independent commentator and not a UKipper remember, that their basic focus has changed less in the last years than either Labour or the Conservatives certainly under Dave. Lib Dems have had a fair few swerves recently but in essence they are fairly true and as unelectable as ever.

Hth.

TKF

6,232 posts

234 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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I've read through the UKIP "policies" on their website and they are obviously designed for the populist vote.

You could spin it and say "They are listening to what the public want! Not like the other parties!!!!1!!!eleven!" On the face if it there isn't much to disagree with.

However to me it looked like they simply C&P'd the sensationalist headlines from the Daily Mail. They have one main policy; get out of Europe. Everything else will sort itself out.

Abolish inheritance tax. It brings in £4Bn but being out of Europe will pay for that.

No tax for minimum wage. Being out of Europe will pay for that.

etc.

The problem is if you go onto the Green Party website a lot of their policies make sense, too. If you ignore the environmental stuff.

Heck even the BNP have some things most would agree with. If you ignore the racist fascist stuff.

And therein lies the rub. They are all single policy fringe parties. They all only have a single message and pad it out with populist views. They know they'll never have to follow through with their ideas because they will never actually have any power. That's why a vote for parties like UKIP will only be a protest vote.

Nothing wrong with a protest vote as long as you admit to yourself that's what you're doing.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Monday 21st April 2014
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The problem as ever is that for 99% of voters there is no single party which meets all of their needs and desires, every single one without any omissions or deviation.

Therefore it's always a compromise.

Any party which stands outside the centrist huddle for whatever reason has to take account of popular opinion and the practical concerns of running the country if it wishes to be anything other than a single issue protest party or a comedy vote.

To just dismiss any party because it makes comment or policy statements on what you regard as populist issues says more about your prejudices than anything else. Presumably you also condemn SNP, Plaid Cymru, Green, various of the Irish parties and so on.


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