UKIP - The Future - Volume 2
Discussion
10 Pence Short said:
I see the 'running scared' comment a lot. I'm not sure I agree with that analysis, the reason being I don't think they're under any more scrutiny than any of the other major parties.
Previously UKIP have been sufficiently under the mainstream radar that they don't justify the kind of attention normally reserved for the 'big three'. Now UKIP are trying to establish themselves, with heavy campaign funding and courting of the press, they are quite rightly finding themselves in the spotlight more than they have enjoyed before.
The kind of questioning and analysis they're receiving from the press seems to be no more voracious or unpleasant than that received by the other parties (and a level playing field with the other parties is what UKIP and its supporters seem to want). With that parity comes the good, and the bad.
In the next year, as we run up to the election, I would expect the journalists to take their examinations of UKIP up a notch, with undercover reporters probably infiltrating various echelons as we speak, as they do with the other parties.
Welcome to the big leagues!
Well, not sure what level of questioning that you have been witness to but it seems to me that both the BBC and SKY take the stance that UKIP are inherently racist. Previously UKIP have been sufficiently under the mainstream radar that they don't justify the kind of attention normally reserved for the 'big three'. Now UKIP are trying to establish themselves, with heavy campaign funding and courting of the press, they are quite rightly finding themselves in the spotlight more than they have enjoyed before.
The kind of questioning and analysis they're receiving from the press seems to be no more voracious or unpleasant than that received by the other parties (and a level playing field with the other parties is what UKIP and its supporters seem to want). With that parity comes the good, and the bad.
In the next year, as we run up to the election, I would expect the journalists to take their examinations of UKIP up a notch, with undercover reporters probably infiltrating various echelons as we speak, as they do with the other parties.
Welcome to the big leagues!
The type of questions put to Farage that I have noticed seem to be of a certain incline to suggest that UKIP are a on the same lines as the BNP or EDL.
I have heard nothing from UKIP to suggest that they are racist on any level. But the race card in the UK still seems to be a strong 'game player' so to speak and the UK media in what I have seen seem to be playing it with apparent liberalism.
This is not just going from Sky's interview by Burley, I noticed on the likes of other BBC news interviews in the past along with other Sky news interviews....not to mention the likes of "have I got news for you" etc. (which is of course satirical in its purpose of comedy). But the level of satire is very much along the lines of racism I note.
So I would have to take a different opinion to you regarding your comments on "no more voracious or unpleasant", as I do think they are a sizable target for the owners/editors of the media and their interests.
Bill said:
How so? AIUI the stockpiles are what has been confiscated and aren't in circulation. This vote seems to be geared at enforcing existing CITES legislation
The vote was about using €12 and a bit million from the European development fund over 4 years to count Elephants and other endangered animals in Africa, the Caribbean and the Pacific - oh and to grease some palms in those places under the "assisting" local law enforcement remit.So 4 years of Safari's and cruises using the European development fund under the "protecting elephants" excuse.
I like elephants but would happily vote against such a motion.
McWigglebum4th said:
I'll still waiting for someone to tell me how treating everyone in the world equally is racist
What is racist about asking a polish plumber to go through exactly the same immigration process as an indian plumber
A few years ago someone very close to me spent a month recruiting in India.....an identical recruitment drive is happening as I type but her successor is in Portugal... and the reason has nothing to do with the Portuguese being better qualified or skilled.What is racist about asking a polish plumber to go through exactly the same immigration process as an indian plumber
Jinx said:
The vote was about using €12 and a bit million from the European development fund over 4 years to count Elephants and other endangered animals in Africa, the Caribbean and the Pacific - oh and to grease some palms in those places under the "assisting" local law enforcement remit.
So 4 years of Safari's and cruises using the European development fund under the "protecting elephants" excuse.
I like elephants but would happily vote against such a motion.
Don't you think poorer countries with other priorities need help protecting their wildlife? Obviously waste, profligacy and just sending people on jollies should be discouraged but we can't really sit in our ivory tower and expect the poorer parts of the world to sort their problems out to our agenda unaided.So 4 years of Safari's and cruises using the European development fund under the "protecting elephants" excuse.
I like elephants but would happily vote against such a motion.
Bill said:
Don't you think poorer countries with other priorities need help protecting their wildlife? Obviously waste, profligacy and just sending people on jollies should be discouraged but we can't really sit in our ivory tower and expect the poorer parts of the world to sort their problems out to our agenda unaided.
Sorry how is a jolly counting elephants and turtles got anything to do with the above? This was about the appropriation of the European Development fund - there are already countless (and certainly unaudited) other funds for use in combatting the ivory trade and for animal welfare. 
10 Pence Short said:
On your second, I would presume stockpiles of illegal ivory are stockpiled somewhere where they cannot be bought and sold freely. In which case, it already ceases to be on the black market, in which case, it cannot affect the price or desirability of ivory. Where would the logic lie in preserving stocks of ivory that cannot be bought, sold or used?
There is a school of thought that is growing in popularity that says one way to decrease the poaching of elephants is to dump the stockpiles of seized ivory onto the market, causing a crash in value. Another is to drip-feed the seized ivory onto the market cheaply, substantially undercutting the poachers and making their activity unprofitable - whether or not these are viable propositions is open for debate (which has not really been had as yet), but destroying these stockpiles 'to make a point' (however ill thought out that point might be) would remove this option. Not a wise move IMO.10 Pence Short said:
Lastly, you intimate that in voting 'no', the 14 (2% of those voting) MEPs who took that choice, are somehow the ones who are protecting the species. That in turn suggests that 96% of the MEPs either didn't understand or didn't care about the effect on elephants. Do you really believe this is a believable scenario?
With the number and speed at which votes are taken in the EU parliament, it could conceivably be the case that voting in agreement of a proposition which, on the surface seems like a positive one would be the default option for MEPs who may have to familiarise themselves with several proposals per session - poaching=bad, something must be done. Is it so unbelievable that MEPs thought their time might be better spent going through the finer points of other proposals that day and that a quick skim of this one, which seems on the surface to be a good idea was sufficient to form an opinion?Maybe the UKIP MEPs and the others who voted against this motion understood the deeper implications.
10 Pence Short said:
I don't think they're under any more scrutiny than any of the other major parties.
In the next year, as we run up to the election, I would expect the journalists to take their examinations of UKIP up a notch, with undercover reporters probably infiltrating various echelons as we speak, as they do with the other parties.
Welcome to the big leagues!
Can you please show us a link to the other threads or websites that are attacking or scrutinising the Labour party and its candidates in the same way?In the next year, as we run up to the election, I would expect the journalists to take their examinations of UKIP up a notch, with undercover reporters probably infiltrating various echelons as we speak, as they do with the other parties.
Welcome to the big leagues!
mrpurple said:
McWigglebum4th said:
I'll still waiting for someone to tell me how treating everyone in the world equally is racist
What is racist about asking a polish plumber to go through exactly the same immigration process as an indian plumber
A few years ago someone very close to me spent a month recruiting in India.....an identical recruitment drive is happening as I type but her successor is in Portugal... and the reason has nothing to do with the Portuguese being better qualified or skilled.What is racist about asking a polish plumber to go through exactly the same immigration process as an indian plumber
Guam said:
Mark Benson said:
As I understand it, the problem is this:
The resolution states;
"11. Calls on the Member States to introduce moratoria on all commercial imports, exports and domestic sales and purchases of tusks and raw and worked ivory products until wild elephant populations are no longer threatened by poaching;
12. Calls on the Member States to join other CITES Parties in sending out a clear signal against wildlife trafficking and demand for illegal wildlife products by destroying their stockpiles of illegal ivory;"
In conservation circles, there is some concern that stopping the legal trade in existing stocks of ivory and destroying existing stockpiles reduces the amount of ivory in circulation and makes any new ivory to come onto the market more valuable.
There is a concern that driving the trade in ivory underground puts in further into the hands of criminals and makes it even harder to regulate.
So on the face of it, some well intentioned people have proposed a course of action that could in fact make the poaching situation worse as the rewards for doing so become ever greater. Not sure I'd vote for that unless I could be sure it wasn't the case.
There is certainly logic in that view, basic supply and demand theorem, would suggest that view has some validity.The resolution states;
"11. Calls on the Member States to introduce moratoria on all commercial imports, exports and domestic sales and purchases of tusks and raw and worked ivory products until wild elephant populations are no longer threatened by poaching;
12. Calls on the Member States to join other CITES Parties in sending out a clear signal against wildlife trafficking and demand for illegal wildlife products by destroying their stockpiles of illegal ivory;"
In conservation circles, there is some concern that stopping the legal trade in existing stocks of ivory and destroying existing stockpiles reduces the amount of ivory in circulation and makes any new ivory to come onto the market more valuable.
There is a concern that driving the trade in ivory underground puts in further into the hands of criminals and makes it even harder to regulate.
So on the face of it, some well intentioned people have proposed a course of action that could in fact make the poaching situation worse as the rewards for doing so become ever greater. Not sure I'd vote for that unless I could be sure it wasn't the case.
McWigglebum4th said:
mrpurple said:
McWigglebum4th said:
I'll still waiting for someone to tell me how treating everyone in the world equally is racist
What is racist about asking a polish plumber to go through exactly the same immigration process as an indian plumber
A few years ago someone very close to me spent a month recruiting in India.....an identical recruitment drive is happening as I type but her successor is in Portugal... and the reason has nothing to do with the Portuguese being better qualified or skilled.What is racist about asking a polish plumber to go through exactly the same immigration process as an indian plumber
irocfan said:
this would be my take on it too - basic supply and demand. As previously mentioned there is also the question of ivory in private collections, museums etc which was obtained by methods which these days would be illegal but back then not a problem....
CITES covers this. Trade is fine for items from pre-(a certain date wot I can't remember) but completely forbidden afterwards. These stockpiles are out of circulation and have no effect on prices.Bill said:
irocfan said:
this would be my take on it too - basic supply and demand. As previously mentioned there is also the question of ivory in private collections, museums etc which was obtained by methods which these days would be illegal but back then not a problem....
CITES covers this. Trade is fine for items from pre-(a certain date wot I can't remember) but completely forbidden afterwards. These stockpiles are out of circulation and have no effect on prices.Einion Yrth said:
One might argue that selling the stockpiles rather than destroying them could both reduce the poaching pressure on elephant populations and also provide finance for further anti-poaching measures.
Agreed.ETA although forcing prices down through over supply could result in people having to kill more elephants to earn the money.
Either way it's complicated and I think UKIP are better sticking to their "we're just curmudgeonly" guns rather than trying to argue they're the only ones who have thought it through fully.
Edited by Bill on Thursday 24th April 14:19
einsign said:
Can you please show us a link to the other threads or websites that are attacking or scrutinising the Labour party and its candidates in the same way?
Take a look at any number of newspapers and magazines. Google for any of the many blogs dedicated to scrutiny and/or ridicule any one or all of the political parties.UKIP supports may find the new found scrutiny a shock, but it should be anything but. If UKIP continue to court the press, they will in time find themselves becoming a facsimile of the main parties with respect to becoming staid.
AshVX220 said:
With regard to the increased media attention of UKIP.
Personally I trust journalists only slightly more than I trust politicians. Everyone at that level political or journalistic has an agenda.
Many journalists are in the employ of the EU and only write what their masters tell them, I'd say they're equally bad.Personally I trust journalists only slightly more than I trust politicians. Everyone at that level political or journalistic has an agenda.
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