UKIP - The Future - Volume 2
Discussion
Zod said:
post the alternative evidence then (not a claim that you posted it somewhere else a few weeks ago). If it's so readily available, you must be able to give it to me quickly.
The majority of their policies for most of their existence have been more lefty than eighty?Thier inclination on Europe has actually been far more aligned with traditional Labour policy.
Their immigration stance is actually very left wing.
Its a hilarious con job UKIP pull off that they are a very left wing party which gets portrayed as right wing. Well, it amuses me anyway
Bill said:
And there are some points in the FT review some might find challenging: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/c47ff0f2-a9e9-11e3-8bd6-...
Without doing research confirming authors claims, it's well written and interesting article. league67 said:
Bill said:
And there are some points in the FT review some might find challenging: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/c47ff0f2-a9e9-11e3-8bd6-...
Without doing research confirming authors claims, it's well written and interesting article. FiF said:
PRTVR said:
Efbe said:
apologies to many, but the general take on UKIP is as follows:
aside from PH, UKIP is a fringe party like the LDs will be for the next election.
essentially a right wing sect of the conservatives all it can ever do is garner votes away from the conservatives, handing the election to labour.
I have yet to grasp the PH fascination with UKIP, am quite unsold by the manifesto, would all this effort just to leave the EU not be better aimed at the conservative MPs?
Your problem is that you think it is only on PH that UKIP have a following, membership numbers are going up every month, this is people who are prepared to put their hands in their pockets and pay good money to be a part of UKIP.aside from PH, UKIP is a fringe party like the LDs will be for the next election.
essentially a right wing sect of the conservatives all it can ever do is garner votes away from the conservatives, handing the election to labour.
I have yet to grasp the PH fascination with UKIP, am quite unsold by the manifesto, would all this effort just to leave the EU not be better aimed at the conservative MPs?
Not everybody lives in an area that is Conservative, I live in a labour area, the north east, the votes lost in my area will be from the labour candidate, you talk of lost votes from the conservative party but for me it shows how all the major parties have lost touch with normal people, most of which fill their candidates from career politicians, UKIP stand out in a sea of sameness, slightly anti establishment and not following the normal policies of pro EU,pro green energy .
Apologies for going over the same ground but research, proper independent academic research, has shown that UKIP does not comprise greyhaired ex Tories who have been driven away by Cameron.
Yes they are there but they are also as the above poster points out taking significant votes from Labour. Perhaps not all over the nation but in areas that should be worrying to Labour. Not sure to what extent Labour have twigged this yet.
They are also gaining support from a group that we have tagged the 'left behind.' This group had turned their backs on politics as they felt the Westminster metro career politicians no longer spoke for them so they refused to vote or voted for various protest parties.
Some of that left behind group went to BNP and even though they found the overt racism of that party completely distasteful felt that it was a safe protest vote for a party that represented some of their views even if they abhorred the extremes.
It's not just ph who find this party interesting it's appeal is much wider if you actually take the trouble to look. Why is it interesting even if you don't agree with the party aims.
Well it's the first completely new national party to make significant chance of a breakthrough in generations. Labour party was the last one.
Secondly the traditional protest party has been the LibDems who also positioned themselves as the party untainted by power and the Establishment.
Well with 5 years in power the Coalition and typical Establishment scandals emerging all the time, including the hideous Cyril Smith horror show, they are screwed. End of. I have put a tenner, a real live ten pound note with the bookies that Clegg will lose Sheffield Hallam seat.
So where will their votes go? Pass. Probably not Ukip but what is clear is that the potential for a complete change in the Uk political map exists. Maybe that will happen maybe it won't but none of us will see such a fascinating battle again in our lifetimes.
thanks for this reply, you did get the point I was trying to make, in that this is the general view. I was hoping by pointing this out, the thread could get a little back more to where next for UKIP, as popularity is king, UKIP have a long long way to go to change attitudes towards them, far more than seems to be apparent in this thread!
I am relatively uninformed on UKIP, which probably helps qualify my position here, ideal for a general consensus approach, but rubbish for knowledge!
Back in the day when UKIP was young it did just seem to be an anti EU party plain and simple. over the years with more and more dodgy connections it seemed to garner a far right wing following, sitting to the right of the conservatives.
All of this is purely the perception of UKIP, the reality may be completely different, but it matters little. People vote on what they know now, the vast majority of voters will not and do not read up on politics, their only knowledge is drip fed from whichever media portals they read.
IMO there is a massive flaw in UKIP; it only has one major policy. The other smaller policies that have become more apparent recently have been portrayed as quite right wing, though facts are few and far between in the media on this.
Until UKIP starts shaping some other major policies and really standing behind them, so they are covered by the media, they will not be taken seriously.
Pro or Anti EU doesn't really concern most people, I mean; whats wrong with the status-quo, half-in-half-out?
There are far more important factors going on in society, so why would anyone waste their vote on a party that only cares about one?
Efbe,
Thanks and pleased that I picked up the slant of your comments.
Where next for UKIP is a really good question as it brings the thread absolutely back to bang on topic.
Clearly three things they really need to do is as soon as the EU election is over.
1 Manifesto costed as far as possible bearing in mind they will have less knowledge around the true numbers than any og the three main parties. That is imvho excusable but the usual suspects will be less forgiving.
2 Target acquisition and concentration of forces. One thing we do know is that in 2015 there will not be a landslide from an electoral earthquake with Mr and Mrs Farage ordering the removal vans destination No10. If that happens will give up my second career and go do something useful. They must have a good look at realistic constituencies and go for those. Get that foothold. If they don't then they will hit the buffers once again. Farage will resign and who knows what will happen.
Labour would probably be in power, voting age would have been reduced to 16, more integration with Europe and the one thing that any future government would find impassible to undo another load of debt.
3. They really need to get their party organisation and structure in place. They really need to work at vetting members and in particular anyone who gets near to the higher levels of the party or anywhere near the public face. Ref idiot poster boy twitter yesterday. That really should have been fixed.
They were clearly infiltrated by the BNP and whilst they're trying to sort it there are some one fears lying low.
Hate to use this phrase as it's usually brought into play by some numpty commercial outfit that has screwed up but at the moment they are in danger of becoming victims of their own success.
With that suspect it's time that I bowed out from UKIP threads for a bit
Thanks all it will continue to be emotional.
Thanks and pleased that I picked up the slant of your comments.
Where next for UKIP is a really good question as it brings the thread absolutely back to bang on topic.
Clearly three things they really need to do is as soon as the EU election is over.
1 Manifesto costed as far as possible bearing in mind they will have less knowledge around the true numbers than any og the three main parties. That is imvho excusable but the usual suspects will be less forgiving.
2 Target acquisition and concentration of forces. One thing we do know is that in 2015 there will not be a landslide from an electoral earthquake with Mr and Mrs Farage ordering the removal vans destination No10. If that happens will give up my second career and go do something useful. They must have a good look at realistic constituencies and go for those. Get that foothold. If they don't then they will hit the buffers once again. Farage will resign and who knows what will happen.
Labour would probably be in power, voting age would have been reduced to 16, more integration with Europe and the one thing that any future government would find impassible to undo another load of debt.
3. They really need to get their party organisation and structure in place. They really need to work at vetting members and in particular anyone who gets near to the higher levels of the party or anywhere near the public face. Ref idiot poster boy twitter yesterday. That really should have been fixed.
They were clearly infiltrated by the BNP and whilst they're trying to sort it there are some one fears lying low.
Hate to use this phrase as it's usually brought into play by some numpty commercial outfit that has screwed up but at the moment they are in danger of becoming victims of their own success.
With that suspect it's time that I bowed out from UKIP threads for a bit
Thanks all it will continue to be emotional.
Efbe said:
FiF,
thanks for this reply, you did get the point I was trying to make, in that this is the general view. I was hoping by pointing this out, the thread could get a little back more to where next for UKIP, as popularity is king, UKIP have a long long way to go to change attitudes towards them, far more than seems to be apparent in this thread!
I am relatively uninformed on UKIP, which probably helps qualify my position here, ideal for a general consensus approach, but rubbish for knowledge!
Back in the day when UKIP was young it did just seem to be an anti EU party plain and simple. over the years with more and more dodgy connections it seemed to garner a far right wing following, sitting to the right of the conservatives.
All of this is purely the perception of UKIP, the reality may be completely different, but it matters little. People vote on what they know now, the vast majority of voters will not and do not read up on politics, their only knowledge is drip fed from whichever media portals they read.
IMO there is a massive flaw in UKIP; it only has one major policy. The other smaller policies that have become more apparent recently have been portrayed as quite right wing, though facts are few and far between in the media on this.
Until UKIP starts shaping some other major policies and really standing behind them, so they are covered by the media, they will not be taken seriously.
Pro or Anti EU doesn't really concern most people, I mean; whats wrong with the status-quo, half-in-half-out?
There are far more important factors going on in society, so why would anyone waste their vote on a party that only cares about one?
Some interesting points well made.thanks for this reply, you did get the point I was trying to make, in that this is the general view. I was hoping by pointing this out, the thread could get a little back more to where next for UKIP, as popularity is king, UKIP have a long long way to go to change attitudes towards them, far more than seems to be apparent in this thread!
I am relatively uninformed on UKIP, which probably helps qualify my position here, ideal for a general consensus approach, but rubbish for knowledge!
Back in the day when UKIP was young it did just seem to be an anti EU party plain and simple. over the years with more and more dodgy connections it seemed to garner a far right wing following, sitting to the right of the conservatives.
All of this is purely the perception of UKIP, the reality may be completely different, but it matters little. People vote on what they know now, the vast majority of voters will not and do not read up on politics, their only knowledge is drip fed from whichever media portals they read.
IMO there is a massive flaw in UKIP; it only has one major policy. The other smaller policies that have become more apparent recently have been portrayed as quite right wing, though facts are few and far between in the media on this.
Until UKIP starts shaping some other major policies and really standing behind them, so they are covered by the media, they will not be taken seriously.
Pro or Anti EU doesn't really concern most people, I mean; whats wrong with the status-quo, half-in-half-out?
There are far more important factors going on in society, so why would anyone waste their vote on a party that only cares about one?
"so why would anyone waste their vote on a party that only cares about one?" - perhaps the fact that so many people are prepared to take a leap of faith and vote for them tells more about the "established" parties than it does UKIP?
league67 said:
Quick google about the author of the book as you take as the source. His personal website
http://www.snouts-in-the-trough.com/
Other titles available from the same author;
Greed unlimited - how bankers and political elites are fleecing unsuspecting British public
Don't Buy It! - The tricks and traps salespeople use and how to beat them
Rip OFF! - The scandalous inside story of the consulting money machine.
In web form;
NHS - The killing machine is live and well!
I like book titles with exclamation markets, they kind of make you salivating at the prospect of some nefarious activity being exposed.
That is your source? Credible source for the stupendous statement that journos are in the EU pocket. One thing seems certain. You seem to be prime audience for this type of books; marginalized, angry and not particularly clever. Above all, it's always someone else's fault for all your failings. Not forgetting academics (your use of quotation marks here is quite puzzling). They are all in on the "gravy train" (here, that's how you use quotations marks). Is that the same train used by MEPs? Different carriage?
Nevertheless, quite entertaining.
So you're arguing that his books are full of falsehoods then? The contents of the book are not true because you feel they are too inflammatory? If you read the book in question it more factual than anything, not as emotive and hyperbole-ridden as you're seeming to suggest. True academics have integrity and value knowledge and facts, they do not attempt to brainwash students on instruction from their masters above.http://www.snouts-in-the-trough.com/
Other titles available from the same author;
Greed unlimited - how bankers and political elites are fleecing unsuspecting British public
Don't Buy It! - The tricks and traps salespeople use and how to beat them
Rip OFF! - The scandalous inside story of the consulting money machine.
In web form;
NHS - The killing machine is live and well!
I like book titles with exclamation markets, they kind of make you salivating at the prospect of some nefarious activity being exposed.
That is your source? Credible source for the stupendous statement that journos are in the EU pocket. One thing seems certain. You seem to be prime audience for this type of books; marginalized, angry and not particularly clever. Above all, it's always someone else's fault for all your failings. Not forgetting academics (your use of quotation marks here is quite puzzling). They are all in on the "gravy train" (here, that's how you use quotations marks). Is that the same train used by MEPs? Different carriage?
Nevertheless, quite entertaining.
I'm afraid you're wrong about me. I don't personally feel marginalised; I am white, middle class, able-bodied, university-educated, live in an affluent area and have a decent job with prospects. Growing up I wanted for nothing. That doesn't mean I cannot be angry about the path our country is heading down and empathise with those less fortunate who are worst affected.
Not very clever? Not VERY clever no, not Mensa level but have a significantly above average IQ, a 2.1 honours degree from "good" (how's that for quotation marks?) university, am musically capable, speak some Mandarin and don't tend to meet too many people who I think are much brighter.
Always somebody else's fault for my failings? Wrong again. I'm big on accountability and as I alluded to previously, don't feel I've suffered any particularly bad failings thus far. Accountability of the individual is something that has been steadily eroded with ever greater state interference in peoples lives.
The problem is you just disagree with me so rather than debate the issues you just throw around weak insults. Tell me why you refuse to consider that the EU might influence journalism and education? Are you a Common Purpose graduate?!
Seems British workers are really being hit by migrant workers:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fac...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fac...
DMN said:
Seems British workers are really being hit by migrant workers:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fac...
"In the broadcast, Zimbabwe-born Mr Lampitt, who runs a decorating business in Morden, posed in a builder’s hard-hat to complain “lads from eastern Europe” were undercutting him.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fac...
But in tweets unearthed afterwards, he claimed Ed Miliband was “not British”, condemned Islam as “evil”, and on Africans, said: “Let them kill themselves off.” Today his family said he was dealing with “personal issues”. A family member said: “He is actually a very nice person but is very angry at the moment.” Mr Lampitt did not respond to requests for a comment."
I'm looking for a decorator around Morden as it happens. Have decided to go with a Pole - and not because of price either. Definitely don't want an angry Zimmer in my household! Not a Kipper myself, but I wish they would vet their members a bit more carefully.
Edited by fido on Friday 25th April 15:39
It's good to see the thread back on topic!
My opinion is that UKIP are hoping to make gains in next month's council elections. If they have a strong local presence, then they will be seen as a viable alternative to the sitting candidate. This approach has worked well for the LibDems.
So, although the headlies will be all about the European results, it is the council elections that will be important.
My opinion is that UKIP are hoping to make gains in next month's council elections. If they have a strong local presence, then they will be seen as a viable alternative to the sitting candidate. This approach has worked well for the LibDems.
So, although the headlies will be all about the European results, it is the council elections that will be important.
HonestIago said:
So you're arguing that his books are full of falsehoods then? The contents of the book are not true because you feel they are too inflammatory? If you read the book in question it more factual than anything, not as emotive and hyperbole-ridden as you're seeming to suggest. True academics have integrity and value knowledge and facts, they do not attempt to brainwash students on instruction from their masters above.
I'm afraid you're wrong about me. I don't personally feel marginalised; I am white, middle class, able-bodied, university-educated, live in an affluent area and have a decent job with prospects. Growing up I wanted for nothing. That doesn't mean I cannot be angry about the path our country is heading down and empathise with those less fortunate who are worst affected.
Not very clever? Not VERY clever no, not Mensa level but have a significantly above average IQ, a 2.1 honours degree from "good" (how's that for quotation marks?) university, am musically capable, speak some Mandarin and don't tend to meet too many people who I think are much brighter.
Always somebody else's fault for my failings? Wrong again. I'm big on accountability and as I alluded to previously, don't feel I've suffered any particularly bad failings thus far. Accountability of the individual is something that has been steadily eroded with ever greater state interference in peoples lives.
The problem is you just disagree with me so rather than debate the issues you just throw around weak insults. Tell me why you refuse to consider that the EU might influence journalism and education? Are you a Common Purpose graduate?!
Why would you feel the need to share your life story on the internet is beyond me. I'm afraid you're wrong about me. I don't personally feel marginalised; I am white, middle class, able-bodied, university-educated, live in an affluent area and have a decent job with prospects. Growing up I wanted for nothing. That doesn't mean I cannot be angry about the path our country is heading down and empathise with those less fortunate who are worst affected.
Not very clever? Not VERY clever no, not Mensa level but have a significantly above average IQ, a 2.1 honours degree from "good" (how's that for quotation marks?) university, am musically capable, speak some Mandarin and don't tend to meet too many people who I think are much brighter.
Always somebody else's fault for my failings? Wrong again. I'm big on accountability and as I alluded to previously, don't feel I've suffered any particularly bad failings thus far. Accountability of the individual is something that has been steadily eroded with ever greater state interference in peoples lives.
The problem is you just disagree with me so rather than debate the issues you just throw around weak insults. Tell me why you refuse to consider that the EU might influence journalism and education? Are you a Common Purpose graduate?!
I'll try one more time. I'm not interested in books that need an exclamation marks to convey their message. Imagine ; 'On the origin of species !'. I don't need to read homeopathic books to know that they are full of crap meant for gullible and desperate. I also don't need to read article in 'audiophile' press to know that review of £20,000 cable is meaningless.
I don't buy conspiracy theories.
There are no masters. They are as real as bearded set of pixels in the sky. I stand by that books like are idiotic, with appropriate target audience.
I'll leave you with this. Try to understand why the provenance of any extraordinary claim is very important. Journalist paid for EU? Probably by the same EU masters who are infusing contrails with aluminum powder in order to control our thoughts?
McWigglebum4th said:
What have i been banging on about since volume one?
Windturbines!
What have i been told since volume one
Kippers delivering to you the tory party the tory voters actually want
No response to the tory party stealing UKIP policies?Windturbines!
What have i been told since volume one
tory party faithful said:
its a wasted voted, you can't change anything, they'll never have an MP
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27137184BBC said:
The Conservatives have said they will not subsidise new onshore wind farms if they win the 2015 general election.
Kippers delivering to you the tory party the tory voters actually want
league67 said:
XCP said:
What difference would a UKIP councillor make on my local council?
Save elephants?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/1078...
I guess they could have been photoshopped, a bit like the Whitehall computers that were used to leave comments on Wikipedia about the Hillsborough disaster and LFC may have been hacked?
I guess they could have been photoshopped, a bit like the Whitehall computers that were used to leave comments on Wikipedia about the Hillsborough disaster and LFC may have been hacked?
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