UKIP - The Future - Volume 2

[HonestIago]

league67 said:

HonestIago said:

I'd say it's more a case of said "left-behinders" finally cottoning on to the fact that Labour screwed them completely. Immigrants are not the focus of direct blame, rather the politicians that facilitated mass uncontrolled immigration. Low-skilled working classes make up a large contingent of the population and have felt the effects of said immigration more than most. What would you suggest they do instead of voting UKIP? What is in their interests? You seem to suggest they are being duped by Farage/UKIP which I'd say is pretty inaccurate. Voting UKIP is a rational decision for them and many others. The problem is the many others just haven't realised it yet!

Good post.

Left-behinders are duped by Farage that he is 'THE bloke-down-the-pub', 'one-of-the-people'. As for immigration, Farage just offered convenient scapegoat. Suddenly, left-behinders can believe and say loudly; 'I failed at life because of them immigrants, it's nothing to do with lack of education, drive, taking responsibilities for my own life'. 'It's all them immigrants, pox on their houses'. Voting UKIP will be temporary relief, before they are replaced by either technology or outsourcing. What I'd suggest is for them to try to better themselves. To differentiate themselves from the immigrants. They have starting advantage of speaking English as a primary language. They know how the system works.

When you say that many others 'haven't realised it yet', are you actually saying that those 'many others' are even slower than left-behinders? What a scary thought. I'm not saying that you are wrong.

Farage is a "bloke-down-the-pub" in the sense he is not part of the over-privileged well-connected political elite. His parents weren't politicians and he never even went to university. He made a very good living in the private sector, and he was WORSE off by going into politics. That distinguishes him enormously from nearly all of Westminster who are there almost exclusively for personal enrichment.

Why can't these people better themselves then? The finger can be pointed at Labour again in this regard for wrecking state education. UKIP want to reintroduce grammar schools, don't you think this would help those at the bottom of society who have a little drive and ambition? Labour's splurging on the welfare state also allowed large tracts of the unemployed/low-skilled just to fester on benefits. Can you see how it might be hard motivating oneself when you can have a passable existence for zero effort? When going and working 40hrs a week will scarcely make you better off? UKIP policies would improve social mobility, where as LibLabCon have worsened it continually since WWII.

Many people haven't realised that UKIP make sense because they haven't had to deal first hand with the results of abysmal LibLabCon policy on immigration/education/welfare. I'm struggling to think of any group in society who'd be worse off under UKIP other than; welfare scroungers, illegal immigrants and the super rich big business types who have benefitted from paying lower wages and an over-supply in the labour market.

[Mr Snap]

Scuffers said:

Looking at the latest ukip news...

http://www.ukip.org/ukip_were_right_in_romania_and...

What i find sad is the level of abuse they got in January over this...

That's odd.

You seem to think that East European immigrants coming to the UK is a problem. But, when it comes to East Europeans going to the West Bank and actually stealing Palestinian lands by force, you seem a far less bothered.

Maybe you've just solved the answer to the Palestinian question. They should join UKIP...

[Scuffers]

Mr Snap said:

That's odd.

You seem to think that East European immigrants coming to the UK is a problem. But, when it comes to East Europeans going to the West Bank and actually stealing Palestinian lands by force, you seem a far less bothered.

Maybe you've just solved the answer to the Palestinian question. They should join UKIP...

maybe you should actually take notice of what i actually think rather than making it up as you go along otherwise your risk of looking a prat again.......

[Mr Snap]

Scuffers said:

Mr Snap said:

That's odd.

You seem to think that East European immigrants coming to the UK is a problem. But, when it comes to East Europeans going to the West Bank and actually stealing Palestinian lands by force, you seem a far less bothered.

Maybe you've just solved the answer to the Palestinian question. They should join UKIP...

maybe you should actually take notice of what i actually think rather than making it up as you go along otherwise your risk of looking a prat again...….

I'd love to be able to take notice of what you think, but I've not quite perfected the Vulcan Mind Meld technique - yet.

Actually, come to think about it, I really wouldn't like to know what it's like to be inside your head, I think it might be a little bit cramped...

[longblackcoat]

HonestIago said:

I'm struggling to think of any group in society who'd be worse off under UKIP other than; welfare scroungers, illegal immigrants and the super rich big business types who have benefitted from paying lower wages and an over-supply in the labour market.

I really don't know how you can say that - we still don't have any real idea what a UKIP government would cost, ergo we have no idea who'd be better or worse off. Perhaps if they confirm what they actually want to do on welfare, defence and health, what their tax policies would be, and what their 2015-2020 gains/losses from getting us out of the EU might be, then we could make a judgement.

Right now, I don't have a clue. And neither do you.

[longblackcoat]

Guam said:

longblackcoat said:

I really don't know how you can say that - we still don't have any real idea what a UKIP government would cost, ergo we have no idea who'd be better or worse off. Perhaps if they confirm what they actually want to do on welfare, defence and health, what their tax policies would be, and what their 2015-2020 gains/losses from getting us out of the EU might be, then we could make a judgement.

Right now, I don't have a clue. And neither do you.

Indeed aren't they answering all those issues in September?

Apparently so, but all we have at the moment is supposition. I take the point that's being made, however; if everything that Farage has promised can actually be delivered, then we'd all be better off.

My cynicism is that everything I've seen so far from UKIP has been at such a high level as to be stratospheric, and that the details which will determine success or failure have not been defined or even considered.

[HonestIago]

longblackcoat said:

Apparently so, but all we have at the moment is supposition. I take the point that's being made, however; if everything that Farage has promised can actually be delivered, then we'd all be better off.

My cynicism is that everything I've seen so far from UKIP has been at such a high level as to be stratospheric, and that the details which will determine success or failure have not been defined or even considered.

Isn't that the key point? That what UKIP want is actually what's best for (nearly) all of us where as all the rest just want more government, more tax, more spending, more EU and fewer personal freedoms.

I'd rather have a bunch of patriotic amateurs cack-handedly trying to do the right thing, than a shrewd bunch of control-freak traitors who hate Britain and want nothing more than to make us all slaves to an undemocratic superstate.

[longblackcoat]

HonestIago said:

longblackcoat said:

Apparently so, but all we have at the moment is supposition. I take the point that's being made, however; if everything that Farage has promised can actually be delivered, then we'd all be better off.

My cynicism is that everything I've seen so far from UKIP has been at such a high level as to be stratospheric, and that the details which will determine success or failure have not been defined or even considered.

Isn't that the key point? That what UKIP want is actually what's best for (nearly) all of us where as all the rest just want more government, more tax, more spending, more EU and fewer personal freedoms.

I'd rather have a bunch of patriotic amateurs cack-handedly trying to do the right thing, than a shrewd bunch of control-freak traitors who hate Britain and want nothing more than to make us all slaves to an undemocratic superstate.

Whereas I'd run a mile from amateurs. Great for local performances of The Sound Of Music, less so for control of a missile system.

[Einion Yrth]

Guam said:

Cynicism is a healthy trait with regards to political matters I have always believed, no argument from me there! Personally I think the speculative argument regarding possible detail or lack thereof, is pointless, given we are not far off having hard proposals from them, to tear into.

Doubtless we will all be able to fill much bandwidth with lots to argue over when it comes out

My concern is I might be in the US and miss all the fun on here when its released

I'm pretty sure they have "da internetz" in the US too Thom.

[league67]

HonestIago said:

league67 said:

HonestIago said:

I'd say it's more a case of said "left-behinders" finally cottoning on to the fact that Labour screwed them completely. Immigrants are not the focus of direct blame, rather the politicians that facilitated mass uncontrolled immigration. Low-skilled working classes make up a large contingent of the population and have felt the effects of said immigration more than most. What would you suggest they do instead of voting UKIP? What is in their interests? You seem to suggest they are being duped by Farage/UKIP which I'd say is pretty inaccurate. Voting UKIP is a rational decision for them and many others. The problem is the many others just haven't realised it yet!

Good post.

Left-behinders are duped by Farage that he is 'THE bloke-down-the-pub', 'one-of-the-people'. As for immigration, Farage just offered convenient scapegoat. Suddenly, left-behinders can believe and say loudly; 'I failed at life because of them immigrants, it's nothing to do with lack of education, drive, taking responsibilities for my own life'. 'It's all them immigrants, pox on their houses'. Voting UKIP will be temporary relief, before they are replaced by either technology or outsourcing. What I'd suggest is for them to try to better themselves. To differentiate themselves from the immigrants. They have starting advantage of speaking English as a primary language. They know how the system works.

When you say that many others 'haven't realised it yet', are you actually saying that those 'many others' are even slower than left-behinders? What a scary thought. I'm not saying that you are wrong.

Farage is a "bloke-down-the-pub" in the sense he is not part of the over-privileged well-connected political elite. His parents weren't politicians and he never even went to university. He made a very good living in the private sector, and he was WORSE off by going into politics. That distinguishes him enormously from nearly all of Westminster who are there almost exclusively for personal enrichment.

Why can't these people better themselves then? The finger can be pointed at Labour again in this regard for wrecking state education. UKIP want to reintroduce grammar schools, don't you think this would help those at the bottom of society who have a little drive and ambition? Labour's splurging on the welfare state also allowed large tracts of the unemployed/low-skilled just to fester on benefits. Can you see how it might be hard motivating oneself when you can have a passable existence for zero effort? When going and working 40hrs a week will scarcely make you better off? UKIP policies would improve social mobility, where as LibLabCon have worsened it continually since WWII.

Many people haven't realised that UKIP make sense because they haven't had to deal first hand with the results of abysmal LibLabCon policy on immigration/education/welfare. I'm struggling to think of any group in society who'd be worse off under UKIP other than; welfare scroungers, illegal immigrants and the super rich big business types who have benefitted from paying lower wages and an over-supply in the labour market.

Farage's father was stockbroker, and so was Cameron's. He went to Dulwich college, £36000 a year school. Is that not the very definition of 'over-priviledged' or is it just like a typical bloke down the pub. He made more than £2mil out of EU. Excluding his wife's income. If I'm not mistaken he's still consulting for Natixis. So, I'd say he's doing quite well out of EU and he's definitely not worse off now. You are right, not going to university is the difference. Do you think that that is a good thing?

People can better themselves if they want to. Of course they can. That 'bettering' almost uniformly requires work. There are numerous examples on this very thread that some people would much rather bh and moan than actually do something constructive to better themselves. Uk, in general, is a very meritocratic society. If you are prepared to work hard, and better yourself; opportunities are there.

Saying 'LibLabCon' does nothing to further your arguments. Given that the most of UKIP politicians are ex from all of those, I'm sort of envious of your optimism that they'll do better. As discussed numerous times on this thread the figures that UKIP is banding around just do not add up.
As for motivation; some people need to be on benefits, and I personally think that whole benefit argument is a bit of red herring. I don't mind my taxes being used for that at all. In any large organization there is a wastage, and to think that UKIP will stop that is naive in the extreme. I don't think that re-introduction of anything will help people with low drive and ambition.

I've recently moved out of London, and UKIP candidate around these parts wanted to stop expansion of rail terminal that provides thousands of jobs. The leaflet was a cringe-worthy attempt to pander to nimbyism. Fortunately, local socio-demographics made sure that he finished well behind.

You don't think that lower labour costs and increased competition are good for UK competitiveness on global stage?

[powerstroke]

league67 said:

You don't think that lower labour costs and increased competition are good for UK competitiveness on global stage?

They might be !! But who does it benefit ??? yes good if you like
The ever larger gap between the top and bottom bad if you think we should all have a reasonable standard of living without state help like tax credits..

[brenflys777]

Nigel Farage has committed to Thanet South.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nige...


Interesting times ahead.

[TheRealFingers99]

Muslim Ukip Member, Ismail Patel, Defects To George Galloway's Respect Party Over Gaza Racism Claims

[Einion Yrth]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Muslim Ukip Member, Ismail Patel, Defects To George Galloway's Respect Party Over Gaza Racism Claims

If he's gone to join Galloway I'd view him as a bullet dodged, frankly.

[TheRealFingers99]

Einion Yrth said:

If he's gone to join Galloway I'd view him as a bullet dodged, frankly.

I agree that it may be a step too far, but worry about the severity of the attack that led to that moment on the "road to Damascus".

[pcvdriver]

Guam said:

Meanwhile back on track, UKIP donations have exceeded the lib Dems for the first time ever, clearly they are getting serious funding in place now, that has to have an effect on their prospects.

Maybe they can use some of that newly found extra funding to train their candidates to be a bit more media-savvy (sorry, sound a lot less like racist fkwits)

[pcvdriver]

TheRealFingers99 said:

steveT350C said:

Looks like an entire sentence is missing,

Have emailed relevant parties, thanks for the heads up

This is what happens if you give otherwise unemployable Germans important jobs!

Das ist NICHT waar!!!!!

[pcvdriver]

Mr Snap said:

I'd love to be able to take notice of what you think, but I've not quite perfected the Vulcan Mind Meld technique - yet.

Actually, come to think about it, I really wouldn't like to know what it's like to be inside your head, I think it might be a little bit cramped...

Cramped? How so? I'd have thought there'd be loads of space vacant inside the average Kipper head........it can't be occupied by much grey matter - if any.....

[pcvdriver]

HonestIago said:

Isn't that the key point? That what UKIP want is actually what's best for (nearly) all of us where as all the rest just want more government, more tax, more spending, more EU and fewer personal freedoms.

I'd rather have a bunch of patriotic amateurs cack-handedly trying to do the right thing, than a shrewd bunch of control-freak traitors who hate Britain and want nothing more than to make us all slaves to an undemocratic superstate.

The only powers we cede to the EU are ones we choose to - tell me you understand this part....

[FiF]

Guam said:

Hannan on why he wont join UKIP.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100...

It's rather telling that in the paragraph where he talks about the majority of Conservative voters would vote to leave tomorrow and that position being the default stance for prospective parliamentary candidates at selection time that he then goes on to admit that the party leadership have the opposite view.

Continues to support my belief that the problem is Cameron.

Always nice to read Daniel's polite arguments and balanced input including negative views about other parties. Would be welcome if others on this thread and elsewhere could be even half as civil.