UKIP - The Future - Volume 2
Discussion
turbobloke said:
FiF said:
Just heard a soundbite from Douglas Carswell on PM R4.
Claimed that the final straw was when party officials made it clear that Cameron's negotiation strategy was to gain only just enough reforms that enough people would vote to stay in.
That really does deserve to be broadcast far and wide.Claimed that the final straw was when party officials made it clear that Cameron's negotiation strategy was to gain only just enough reforms that enough people would vote to stay in.
It's been a hope and a possibility that Cameron would wake up at some point, but he's still in dreamworld. The notion of providing his voting fodder with just enough morsels to be grateful for the handout is a reprehensible act of contempt.
to my ears.I would not wish, in the slightest, to second guess anyone's political alliances, but if staunch Conservative supporters are starting to feel this way then Bring It On.
Well, I'm back, after my off-grid embarrassment the other evening (now have a full 4G signal and have made a mental note not to post in reaction to a headline without reading the story).
Who said this just a few months ago:
"I think the key point is David Cameron’s Bloomberg speech [which offered an in-out referendum in 2017]. I had been at the thick of it when it came to plotting. I had been doing everything I could to try to get people to vote against the government on Europe policy. Once he agreed with what I was trying to get him to agree with, which was to hold an in-out referendum in 2017 – [I then say to the rebels] why are we doing this guys? We’ve got what we want.
I’m a little bit dismayed that sometimes the tactics adopted by people who feel as strongly about Europe as I do undermine the strategy. The in-out referendum offered by Cameron in his Bloomberg speech was an absolutely key moment. Since then I’ve found my break button, my pause button."!
Who said this just a few months ago:
"I think the key point is David Cameron’s Bloomberg speech [which offered an in-out referendum in 2017]. I had been at the thick of it when it came to plotting. I had been doing everything I could to try to get people to vote against the government on Europe policy. Once he agreed with what I was trying to get him to agree with, which was to hold an in-out referendum in 2017 – [I then say to the rebels] why are we doing this guys? We’ve got what we want.
I’m a little bit dismayed that sometimes the tactics adopted by people who feel as strongly about Europe as I do undermine the strategy. The in-out referendum offered by Cameron in his Bloomberg speech was an absolutely key moment. Since then I’ve found my break button, my pause button."!
More good news...
Douglas Carswell has a whopping 44% lead in the latest opinion poll in Clacton.
Wasn't there a bet about Ukip getting an MP? Can anybody remember the details?
Douglas Carswell has a whopping 44% lead in the latest opinion poll in Clacton.
Daily Mail said:
If Mr Carswell lost or won narrowly, other like-minded Conservatives toying with going over to Ukip would probably conclude it was far too risky.
But if he wins with a record-breaking swing, as our poll suggests he could, they may decide it is more risky to fight the next election as a Tory candidate than as a Ukip one.
And that could change the landscape of British politics.
Full story here...But if he wins with a record-breaking swing, as our poll suggests he could, they may decide it is more risky to fight the next election as a Tory candidate than as a Ukip one.
And that could change the landscape of British politics.
Wasn't there a bet about Ukip getting an MP? Can anybody remember the details?
don4l said:
There is only one way that Cameron can halt the advance of UKIP.
He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
Capacity and power are two separate measurements. He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
SpeedMattersNot said:
don4l said:
There is only one way that Cameron can halt the advance of UKIP.
He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
Capacity and power are two separate measurements. He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
and one of those quantities will be easier for the lunatics in charge of the EU asylum to legislate on and harder for an owner to change i.e. a chip or the old block.SpeedMattersNot said:
don4l said:
There is only one way that Cameron can halt the advance of UKIP.
He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
Capacity and power are two separate measurements. He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
How long before car engines are limited to 100hp?
Bear in mind the fact that they have already started along this path. Why do you think that Aston Martin had to produce the Cygnet?
Edited by don4l on Sunday 31st August 09:37
turbobloke said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
don4l said:
There is only one way that Cameron can halt the advance of UKIP.
He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
Capacity and power are two separate measurements. He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
and one of those quantities will be easier for the lunatics in charge of the EU asylum to legislate on and harder for an owner to change i.e. a chip or the old block.
don4l said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
don4l said:
There is only one way that Cameron can halt the advance of UKIP.
He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
Capacity and power are two separate measurements. He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
How long before car engines are limited to 100hp?
Bear in mind the fact that they have already started along thin path. Why do you think that Aston Martin had to produce the Cygnet?
The answer is I don't know, but why should you need anything more for the road? You can't do more than 70 miles per hour in the UK, so I can't see the problem.
Regarding the Cygnet, don't worry, I understand the implications of EU (and non EU) impacts on our road cars having worked for several years for Land Rover. However, someone on the next street seemingly loves his Cygnet, so much so his reg. plate is starts 0007...nice.
SpeedMattersNot said:
turbobloke said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
don4l said:
There is only one way that Cameron can halt the advance of UKIP.
He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
Capacity and power are two separate measurements. He must immediately announce the date of an in/out referendum, which must take place before next May. If he really wants to re-negotiate with the EU, then he must declare his objectives, and his line in the sand - now. He must give the EU 3 months to meet his minimum demands.
I don't believe that any of this will happen. Cameron will assume that the economic recovery will ensure a majority for him.
Meanwhile, not only can we not buy a powerful vacuum cleaner, but soon most household devices will be limited. Hairdryers are going to see their power cut by 30%.
How long before car engines are limited to 1.4L?
and one of those quantities will be easier for the lunatics in charge of the EU asylum to legislate on and harder for an owner to change i.e. a chip or the old block.
Apart from the inherent benefits of cubic capacity, there may have been a small amount of risk mitigation when I decided to add three V8s to the stable last winter totalling nearly 16 litres. There's no tin foil in them thar glove boxes
FiF said:
Quite.
Plus for the benefit of longblackcoat who is normally sufficiently polite to warrant an answer I will spell out my unanswered question for the final time.
It's directed to those who say that we should be in a reformed EU.
Please state what the reforms should be and what are the lines in the sand, by that requirements that are absolute demands.
If these line in the sand reforms are not achieved or the EU even refuses to discuss the possibility of change on these issues then what is your proposal. Still stay in or leave?
You've had long enough to reply the previous times it's been asked. Last time of asking.
Personally my opinion is that the failure is symptomatic of a lack of principle and emptiness of ideas as Cameron.
(Sorry about the late reply - have been on a series of planes. Lots of legroom but still tiring.)Plus for the benefit of longblackcoat who is normally sufficiently polite to warrant an answer I will spell out my unanswered question for the final time.
It's directed to those who say that we should be in a reformed EU.
Please state what the reforms should be and what are the lines in the sand, by that requirements that are absolute demands.
If these line in the sand reforms are not achieved or the EU even refuses to discuss the possibility of change on these issues then what is your proposal. Still stay in or leave?
You've had long enough to reply the previous times it's been asked. Last time of asking.
Personally my opinion is that the failure is symptomatic of a lack of principle and emptiness of ideas as Cameron.
In truth, your question seems rhetorical, and it's a question on which you long ago decided your position.
Implicit in your post is the view that the EU is generally a bad thing, that it needs reforming, and that there's a line in the sand.
In any case, I don't get who the usual suspects are - certainly not me. Generally, I'm in favour of the EU. I have no problem with lower powered hair dryers. I welcome more economical and less polluting cars. In short, I have no interest in leaving the EU. All governmental organisations are imperfect, and to that end can always be reformed, but I see no need for major changes in the power relationship between the UK and Europe.
I've answered purely because you seem to feel I've ignored your post. It's clear that it's aimed at other people, not at me. And I have no desire to antagonise with my views, deeply unwelcome as they will to many on this thread, but you seemed keen for a response.
longblackcoat said:
FiF said:
Quite.
Plus for the benefit of longblackcoat who is normally sufficiently polite to warrant an answer I will spell out my unanswered question for the final time.
It's directed to those who say that we should be in a reformed EU.
Please state what the reforms should be and what are the lines in the sand, by that requirements that are absolute demands.
If these line in the sand reforms are not achieved or the EU even refuses to discuss the possibility of change on these issues then what is your proposal. Still stay in or leave?
You've had long enough to reply the previous times it's been asked. Last time of asking.
Personally my opinion is that the failure is symptomatic of a lack of principle and emptiness of ideas as Cameron.
(Sorry about the late reply - have been on a series of planes. Lots of legroom but still tiring.)Plus for the benefit of longblackcoat who is normally sufficiently polite to warrant an answer I will spell out my unanswered question for the final time.
It's directed to those who say that we should be in a reformed EU.
Please state what the reforms should be and what are the lines in the sand, by that requirements that are absolute demands.
If these line in the sand reforms are not achieved or the EU even refuses to discuss the possibility of change on these issues then what is your proposal. Still stay in or leave?
You've had long enough to reply the previous times it's been asked. Last time of asking.
Personally my opinion is that the failure is symptomatic of a lack of principle and emptiness of ideas as Cameron.
In truth, your question seems rhetorical, and it's a question on which you long ago decided your position.
Implicit in your post is the view that the EU is generally a bad thing, that it needs reforming, and that there's a line in the sand.
In any case, I don't get who the usual suspects are - certainly not me. Generally, I'm in favour of the EU. I have no problem with lower powered hair dryers. I welcome more economical and less polluting cars. In short, I have no interest in leaving the EU. All governmental organisations are imperfect, and to that end can always be reformed, but I see no need for major changes in the power relationship between the UK and Europe.
I've answered purely because you seem to feel I've ignored your post. It's clear that it's aimed at other people, not at me. And I have no desire to antagonise with my views, deeply unwelcome as they will to many on this thread, but you seemed keen for a response.
It's a difficult decision and on balance my decision is to be out. That's the only bit of my predetermined position.
There are many people who vehemently argue to be in the EU but add in a throwaway line at the end to say but it does need reform. Maybe it's just a means of sitting on the fence as a conciliatory stance or maybe it's what they think.
In which case the next obvious question is ok what needs to be reformed. Bearing in mind that at times there are strong signals for no reform from the EU then the question morphs into what to do if any of the desired reforms cannot be achieved. Not an unreasonable question I feel. Trying to understand the mindset and logic of why someone would be so pro an organisation that they themselves say needs reform. If they come up with a reasoned argumentwith a list and possible actions it could be the basis for discussion at referendum time.
After a long time with effectively no answers then it's difficult to conclude other than that they have no answers and it's simply empty rhetoric / convenient fence sitting.
longblackcoat said:
chris watton said:
The EU seem hell-bent on starting a war with Russia, don't they?
Tell me, how many does it take to tango? And what happened the last time European nations tried to ignore, then appease, an expansionist dictatorship?No easy answers here, I'm afraid.
chris watton said:
Perhaps you're right, Putin needs to take care, he shouldn't sit back and watch the EU roll all over Europe - have they learnt nothing!
it would have been helpful if the EU had not gone there with it's size 12 boots on and offered up NATO membership and all with entry to the EU.it's the same mentality that brought us the cuban missile crisis many moons ago...
Guam said:
Other good news...Article said:
Labour support has halved to a mere 13 per cent since the 2010 Election and the Lib Dems are almost off the graph at a paltry two per cent, compared to 11 per cent in 2010.
turbobloke said:
Guam said:
Other good news...Article said:
Labour support has halved to a mere 13 per cent since the 2010 Election and the Lib Dems are almost off the graph at a paltry two per cent, compared to 11 per cent in 2010.
Guam said:
Still the biggest concerns for the UKIP supporters is immigration? I can understand wanting independence from the EU, but the hassle surrounding them about immigration is difficult for me to grasp. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff