UKIP - The Future - Volume 2
Discussion
SpeedMattersNot said:
I hear a lot of people saying that "we've lost control of our borders". What do they mean by this? I recently drove from the UK to Germany, via France, Belgium and Holland but did not once have to produce my ID to anyone...except when leaving the UK and trying to re-enter it...how much more control do we need?
Speed,I hope this goes some way to answer your question:
Hyde Park: http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01509/S...
Ruined home from illegal occupation in East London: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-145649...
Benefits fraud: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/may/17/traffick...
BTW, please don't think I'm just targeting Romanians as the above was just picked at random.
I'm pretty sure I've read of similar Albanians & Bulgarians.
Just my 2p, your views may differ.
Phil
Guam said:
No idea tbh.
They are screwed over Clacton though.
Options a) don't fight it, immediate accusation of being frit. (is that how it's spelt?)
b) fight it. Must go at it seriously.
If don't go at it seriously they will probably still lose. See a)
Only chance is to go at it full on and hope to win. Don't think they will do it tbh. Country is pissed off. So full on attack and lose, really screwed.
Personally surprised how high immigration is on people's priority as it's not very high on mine. But then I live in rural area. More issues with caravanners
than immigrants tbh.FiF said:
Guam said:
No idea tbh.They are screwed over Clacton though.
Options a) don't fight it, immediate accusation of being frit. (is that how it's spelt?)
b) fight it. Must go at it seriously.
If don't go at it seriously they will probably still lose. See a)
Only chance is to go at it full on and hope to win. Don't think they will do it tbh. Country is pissed off. So full on attack and lose, really screwed.
Personally surprised how high immigration is on people's priority as it's not very high on mine. But then I live in rural area. More issues with caravanners
than immigrants tbh.FiF said:
ewed.
Personally surprised how high immigration is on people's priority as it's not very high on mine..
Not very high on mine either but I think it is a priority because it is linked to so many other issues, school places, NHS, jobs, houses etc.Personally surprised how high immigration is on people's priority as it's not very high on mine..
Another factor is, until fairly recently, you could not voice concerns about the elephant in the room and all it brings with it without being branded or ridiculed. Now, thanks predominantly to UKIP you can so people are.
Guam said:
I am not surprised at that given the Impacts on the Eastern seaboard infrastructure, as you will know it will depend on where they conducted the surveys.
Its interesting to see despite the derision, you and I have called this pretty consistently from the earliest stages of this evolution (stands by for more derision).
I am intrigued as to how angry the pending revelations on the abuse may make labour voters specifically and the nation in General.
I cant see it will ameliorate the general feeling of dissatisfaction with the political classes.
It seems at every turn of the media cogs, another reason appears to distrust the "establishment". I can envisage a possible reaction of "if they cant protect our kids what use are they"?
Thinking about it properly it was rather dumb of me to be surprised as it was a survey of Clacton constituency itself. Its interesting to see despite the derision, you and I have called this pretty consistently from the earliest stages of this evolution (stands by for more derision).
I am intrigued as to how angry the pending revelations on the abuse may make labour voters specifically and the nation in General.
I cant see it will ameliorate the general feeling of dissatisfaction with the political classes.
It seems at every turn of the media cogs, another reason appears to distrust the "establishment". I can envisage a possible reaction of "if they cant protect our kids what use are they"?
Shows that there is some sort of disconnect across the nation. The ever revealing of new facets to the abuse story has to have an impact nationwide, although it will differ from area to area based on the local situation.
On that front has there been any revelations re Gtr London areas? I cannot believe that it's not a similar (or worse?) story there.
Edited by FiF on Monday 1st September 11:30
Guam said:
But but but, Zod tells us its only the Loons and fruitcakes who dont believe CMD and we should all take him at his word regarding the referendum, how can this be happening, how can his own MP's be such "loons"?
ETA On the immigration front, if you lived in Essex and Kent and knew this was going on just over the water, it might impact your mindset.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2739392/Av...
That's an attrocious piece of reporting, I assume that the Daily Mail online is now getting it's reporters direct from UKIP central office (the back room of the Red Lion). ETA On the immigration front, if you lived in Essex and Kent and knew this was going on just over the water, it might impact your mindset.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2739392/Av...
Edited by Guam on Monday 1st September 12:33
What's interesting me, is the way that Immigration is being shaped by UKIP and the right wing press as the most important topic for the next election.
A little bit of googling brought up this data from IPSOS-MORI.
A massive jump from 21% to 38% (mentioned as an issue by respondees) over 2 years. The only people I know who seem to have an issue with immigration are my elderly family members who manage to blame 'them'(*) for all and any social problems. Interestingly enough these are also the people who read the Daily Mail/Express and seem to think that everything was better in the good old days (i.e. the 1950's). I can only assume that constant bombardment of anti-immigration/anti EU coverage by the likes of the Daily Mail is actually forcing this issue.
I'd love to see some more data to see if this correlation is true...
(*) also referred to as 'our coloured friends'.
that's a bit disingenuous...
with net immigration running at the levels we have now, is it any wonder we have a housing crisis, NHS crisis, transport crisis, benefits crisis etc?
at a very simplistic level, public services and housing cannot keep up with the rapid increase in population, and immigration is a big percentage of this (ignoring the other side of the coin that it's the recent immigrants that are boosting the birth rate here).
we get climate change rammed down our gullets every day, but the real threat is the growth in population (on a planetary scale too).
with net immigration running at the levels we have now, is it any wonder we have a housing crisis, NHS crisis, transport crisis, benefits crisis etc?
at a very simplistic level, public services and housing cannot keep up with the rapid increase in population, and immigration is a big percentage of this (ignoring the other side of the coin that it's the recent immigrants that are boosting the birth rate here).
we get climate change rammed down our gullets every day, but the real threat is the growth in population (on a planetary scale too).
Just think, a few years ago, we would have collectively laughed as being outrageous that the EU could implement the kind of laws they have, like hairdryers and vacuum cleaners, for example.
How long will it take, do you think, before they are allowed to dictate the kind of cars we drive, I have no doubt that certain engine capacities will be banned at some point in the near future, and our government will happily oblige.
Had a great drive out yesterday, thoroughly enjoying hearing the roar of a 3.6 straight six engine on song, as we drove round the B-Road twisties with the roof off - it was life-affirming.
Shallow or not - but for that reason alone, I will vote UKIP - like others have said, immigration isn't a big issue for me, it doesn't even register - but that's probably because I live in an area that has yet been untouched by the effects of mass immigration, everyone still speaks English (to a degree...) and everyone still smile and say hello/good morning/afternoon when passing in the street. What's wrong with wanting things to stay that way?
How long will it take, do you think, before they are allowed to dictate the kind of cars we drive, I have no doubt that certain engine capacities will be banned at some point in the near future, and our government will happily oblige.
Had a great drive out yesterday, thoroughly enjoying hearing the roar of a 3.6 straight six engine on song, as we drove round the B-Road twisties with the roof off - it was life-affirming.
Shallow or not - but for that reason alone, I will vote UKIP - like others have said, immigration isn't a big issue for me, it doesn't even register - but that's probably because I live in an area that has yet been untouched by the effects of mass immigration, everyone still speaks English (to a degree...) and everyone still smile and say hello/good morning/afternoon when passing in the street. What's wrong with wanting things to stay that way?
Scuffers said:
that's a bit disingenuous...
with net immigration running at the levels we have now, is it any wonder we have a housing crisis, NHS crisis, transport crisis, benefits crisis etc?
at a very simplistic level, public services and housing cannot keep up with the rapid increase in population, and immigration is a big percentage of this (ignoring the other side of the coin that it's the recent immigrants that are boosting the birth rate here).
we get climate change rammed down our gullets every day, but the real threat is the growth in population (on a planetary scale too).
Agree with you totally.with net immigration running at the levels we have now, is it any wonder we have a housing crisis, NHS crisis, transport crisis, benefits crisis etc?
at a very simplistic level, public services and housing cannot keep up with the rapid increase in population, and immigration is a big percentage of this (ignoring the other side of the coin that it's the recent immigrants that are boosting the birth rate here).
we get climate change rammed down our gullets every day, but the real threat is the growth in population (on a planetary scale too).
Investment in UK infrastructure has been mismanaged for decades, through successive governments. Moreover the effects of immigration are varied and localised and not something which greatly troubles the Islington/Cotswolds set of powerbrokers, in fact it is often of positive effect to their friends and benefactors.
Digga said:
gree with you totally.
Investment in UK infrastructure has been mismanaged for decades, through successive governments. Moreover the effects of immigration are varied and localised and not something which greatly troubles the Islington/Cotswolds set of powerbrokers, in fact it is often of positive effect to their friends and benefactors.
I would suggest that most of the problems raised in the last few messages are not entirely the fault of immigration, but the fault of short sighted politicians doing whatever they think the electorate wants.Investment in UK infrastructure has been mismanaged for decades, through successive governments. Moreover the effects of immigration are varied and localised and not something which greatly troubles the Islington/Cotswolds set of powerbrokers, in fact it is often of positive effect to their friends and benefactors.
The housing problem is simply due to demand exceeding supply, immigration does of course drive some of this, but so too does an aging population, and more people living the singleton life. Remove immigrants from the picture and we would still not be building enough houses.
A stretched NHS is driven by (you guessed it) an aging population, and improved medical expertise allowing (at a cost) more diseases and problems to be solved. The impact of recent immigration is negligible compared to those people needing treatment for a poor diet for example.
We are currently in a period of low unemployment, in effect most people who want a job can get one if they try. I accept that it is more difficult in some parts of the country, but if someone can travel half way across Europe to get a job serving coffee in Costa, then so can bone-idle Tracy from the council estate down the road.
Finally, mismanaged infrastructure has been the case for years now, there hasn't been a massive spend on *any* infrastructure since Victorian times. It's been make do and mend, with no wholesale schemes. Blame every government since the second world war for that one.
The thought that UKIP can change any of this is laughable.
tangerine_sedge said:
Digga said:
gree with you totally.
Investment in UK infrastructure has been mismanaged for decades, through successive governments. Moreover the effects of immigration are varied and localised and not something which greatly troubles the Islington/Cotswolds set of powerbrokers, in fact it is often of positive effect to their friends and benefactors.
I would suggest that most of the problems raised in the last few messages are not entirely the fault of immigration, but the fault of short sighted politicians doing whatever they think the electorate wants.Investment in UK infrastructure has been mismanaged for decades, through successive governments. Moreover the effects of immigration are varied and localised and not something which greatly troubles the Islington/Cotswolds set of powerbrokers, in fact it is often of positive effect to their friends and benefactors.
The housing problem is simply due to demand exceeding supply, immigration does of course drive some of this, but so too does an aging population, and more people living the singleton life. Remove immigrants from the picture and we would still not be building enough houses.
A stretched NHS is driven by (you guessed it) an aging population, and improved medical expertise allowing (at a cost) more diseases and problems to be solved. The impact of recent immigration is negligible compared to those people needing treatment for a poor diet for example.
We are currently in a period of low unemployment, in effect most people who want a job can get one if they try. I accept that it is more difficult in some parts of the country, but if someone can travel half way across Europe to get a job serving coffee in Costa, then so can bone-idle Tracy from the council estate down the road.
Finally, mismanaged infrastructure has been the case for years now, there hasn't been a massive spend on *any* infrastructure since Victorian times. It's been make do and mend, with no wholesale schemes. Blame every government since the second world war for that one.
The thought that UKIP can change any of this is laughable.
Personally I don't recall anyone claiming that UKIP will solve everything, in fact I can remember some agreeing that they wont. The point is that a new party with new ideas is exactly what we want, not to make everything all better again but to shake the current shower out of their complacency and comfort
Just to pick you up on some of this:
the vast majority of the housing shortage is for social housing, and the demand here is not from old people.
tangerine_sedge said:
The housing problem is simply due to demand exceeding supply, immigration does of course drive some of this, but so too does an aging population, and more people living the singleton life. Remove immigrants from the picture and we would still not be building enough houses.
care to back that up with some numbers?the vast majority of the housing shortage is for social housing, and the demand here is not from old people.
tangerine_sedge said:
A stretched NHS is driven by (you guessed it) an aging population, and improved medical expertise allowing (at a cost) more diseases and problems to be solved. The impact of recent immigration is negligible compared to those people needing treatment for a poor diet for example.
once again, the current issues of the NHS are around chronic overloading of casualty units, lack of midwives, etc etc, and whilst the old do account for the issues of bed-blocking, that's not the vast majority of the problem.Scuffers said:
Just to pick you up on some of this:
the vast majority of the housing shortage is for social housing, and the demand here is not from old people.
To add to this, haven't the elderly paid tax and NI for most of their working lives, too?tangerine_sedge said:
The housing problem is simply due to demand exceeding supply, immigration does of course drive some of this, but so too does an aging population, and more people living the singleton life. Remove immigrants from the picture and we would still not be building enough houses.
care to back that up with some numbers?the vast majority of the housing shortage is for social housing, and the demand here is not from old people.
tangerine_sedge said:
A stretched NHS is driven by (you guessed it) an aging population, and improved medical expertise allowing (at a cost) more diseases and problems to be solved. The impact of recent immigration is negligible compared to those people needing treatment for a poor diet for example.
once again, the current issues of the NHS are around chronic overloading of casualty units, lack of midwives, etc etc, and whilst the old do account for the issues of bed-blocking, that's not the vast majority of the problem.Guam said:
Perhaps but as you rightly point out no one else is, so what then, everybody just shuts up and suffers it?
Not at all, and I don't claim to have a solution, but...What you don't do, is blame some small part of society (who don't have a voice) for all the problems.
UKIP and the right wing media are scape-goating immigrants so that they can manipulate an exit from the EU. They'll say anything to any part of the electorate to enable them to force the next government into a referendum, knowing that with just a few more lies/acts of disinformation they can get the exit they desire(*). They've already got a commitment from the Tories that they'll call a referendum in 2017 if they get elected. Just a few more years for the anti-EU brigade to blame Europe for all the ills of modern life.
(*) also known as the SNP approach.
Guam said:
Indeed some years ago I had a letter from the Gov to say I was a fully paid up member of society, owning my own business means I will likely never retire, so who am I paying for now with all my NHI contributions?
It clearly isn't for me as I am paid up.
It clearly isn't for me as I am paid up.
Same here, I can't see me ever retiring. Just paid my tax bill for the year, too - I couldn't begrudge pensioners having a slice of it, they have paid their dues.tangerine_sedge said:
UKIP and the right wing media are scape-goating immigrants so that they can manipulate an exit from the EU.
just because somebody you don't like has chosen to highlight the problem does not mean the problem does not exist.you cannot possibly be trying to suggest that the levels of EU immigration over the last 10 years have not had a massive negative effect on this country?
it's had a pretty devastating effect on Poland etc. as well, with all their skilled workers packing up and coming here.
still think open border mass immigration is a good idea?
tangerine_sedge said:
Guam said:
Perhaps but as you rightly point out no one else is, so what then, everybody just shuts up and suffers it?
Not at all, and I don't claim to have a solution, but...What you don't do, is blame some small part of society (who don't have a voice) for all the problems.
UKIP and the right wing media are scape-goating immigrants so that they can manipulate an exit from the EU. They'll say anything to any part of the electorate to enable them to force the next government into a referendum, knowing that with just a few more lies/acts of disinformation they can get the exit they desire(*). They've already got a commitment from the Tories that they'll call a referendum in 2017 if they get elected. Just a few more years for the anti-EU brigade to blame Europe for all the ills of modern life.
(*) also known as the SNP approach.
They have no problem with immigration per se, but when you have no idea how many people are entering the country and why then you have a bigger problem. UKIP also have libertarian ideals which require people to stand on their own two feet- they recognise that part of the problem that is leading to immigration is a surprisingly large amount of the population who don't want to work and are happy being supported by the state.
Our unemployment has been hovering around 2.3m for years now, but we've had roughly 1m migrants from eastern Europe- most of who are still employed. We still have the same burden of unemployment (with the associated costs) that we've always had.
Ref the Tories- they have been giving "cast iron" promises about an EU referendum for years- 2007 was the earliest I remember. It has little to do with UKIP and everything about untrustworthy policians
Scuffers said:
Just to pick you up on some of this:
the vast majority of the housing shortage is for social housing, and the demand here is not from old people.
I wrote a very long post only to have an Oracle error on submit - here are the highlights..tangerine_sedge said:
The housing problem is simply due to demand exceeding supply, immigration does of course drive some of this, but so too does an aging population, and more people living the singleton life. Remove immigrants from the picture and we would still not be building enough houses.
care to back that up with some numbers?the vast majority of the housing shortage is for social housing, and the demand here is not from old people.
tangerine_sedge said:
A stretched NHS is driven by (you guessed it) an aging population, and improved medical expertise allowing (at a cost) more diseases and problems to be solved. The impact of recent immigration is negligible compared to those people needing treatment for a poor diet for example.
once again, the current issues of the NHS are around chronic overloading of casualty units, lack of midwives, etc etc, and whilst the old do account for the issues of bed-blocking, that's not the vast majority of the problem.Housing - I don't have any numbers at hand, so I'll willingly concede the assertion if you can disprove it (see how I've made it your problem
). The point I'm making is that the problem is not entirely due to immigrants. There simply aren't enough houses being built.There is not enough housing stock full stop. Blame the 1980's policies of right to buy, whilst also stopping councils from building more social housing stock for that.
NHS - 50 years ago, the NHS was able to provide a simple level of care. Now it is expected to support a vast array of expensive treatments. Have a cancer 50 years ago, and your treatment would have consisted of hope and pray, now it's surgery, complex treatements and expensive courses of drugs. Add to this, that people are now living much longer (my grandparents died in their 60's, my parents are approaching 80) and therefore claiming pensions for much longer too.
The current social problems are not the fault of immigrants, or the EU, but the last 50 years of under-investment and ignoring the problem by all politicians.
What we need are politicians who accept this, and just don't blame whoever is unpopular in a pathetic attempt to garner votes.
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