UKIP - The Future - Volume 2
Discussion
tangerine_sedge said:
I wrote a very long post only to have an Oracle error on submit - here are the highlights..
Housing - I don't have any numbers at hand, so I'll willingly concede the assertion if you can disprove it (see how I've made it your problem
). The point I'm making is that the problem is not entirely due to immigrants. There simply aren't enough houses being built.
There is not enough housing stock full stop. Blame the 1980's policies of right to buy, whilst also stopping councils from building more social housing stock for that.
NHS - 50 years ago, the NHS was able to provide a simple level of care. Now it is expected to support a vast array of expensive treatments. Have a cancer 50 years ago, and your treatment would have consisted of hope and pray, now it's surgery, complex treatements and expensive courses of drugs. Add to this, that people are now living much longer (my grandparents died in their 60's, my parents are approaching 80) and therefore claiming pensions for much longer too.
The current social problems are not the fault of immigrants, or the EU, but the last 50 years of under-investment and ignoring the problem by all politicians.
What we need are politicians who accept this, and just don't blame whoever is unpopular in a pathetic attempt to garner votes.
I have worked in social housing, and I don't think you actually understand what happens there.Housing - I don't have any numbers at hand, so I'll willingly concede the assertion if you can disprove it (see how I've made it your problem
). The point I'm making is that the problem is not entirely due to immigrants. There simply aren't enough houses being built.There is not enough housing stock full stop. Blame the 1980's policies of right to buy, whilst also stopping councils from building more social housing stock for that.
NHS - 50 years ago, the NHS was able to provide a simple level of care. Now it is expected to support a vast array of expensive treatments. Have a cancer 50 years ago, and your treatment would have consisted of hope and pray, now it's surgery, complex treatements and expensive courses of drugs. Add to this, that people are now living much longer (my grandparents died in their 60's, my parents are approaching 80) and therefore claiming pensions for much longer too.
The current social problems are not the fault of immigrants, or the EU, but the last 50 years of under-investment and ignoring the problem by all politicians.
What we need are politicians who accept this, and just don't blame whoever is unpopular in a pathetic attempt to garner votes.
yes, right to buy was a stupid policy, but whilst it caused a lot of issues, it's not the root of the current problems.
NHS is a massive f**k up.
too many fingers in the pie, PFI, IT projects, management muppety, fraud, etc all have their part, but the biggest growth areas are A&E and midwifery.
Scuffers said:
I have worked in social housing, and I don't think you actually understand what happens there.
yes, right to buy was a stupid policy, but whilst it caused a lot of issues, it's not the root of the current problems.
NHS is a massive f**k up.
too many fingers in the pie, PFI, IT projects, management muppety, fraud, etc all have their part, but the biggest growth areas are A&E and midwifery.
Give me some examples of social housing where immigrants have had a major impact please?yes, right to buy was a stupid policy, but whilst it caused a lot of issues, it's not the root of the current problems.
NHS is a massive f**k up.
too many fingers in the pie, PFI, IT projects, management muppety, fraud, etc all have their part, but the biggest growth areas are A&E and midwifery.
I also suggest that the reason why A&E & Midwifery are having problems is not because they are massively over-subscribed by immigrants, but because the funding is going elsewhere. I can't beleive that more people are getting saucepans stuck on their head now, than they were 50 years ago
tangerine_sedge said:
Scuffers said:
I have worked in social housing, and I don't think you actually understand what happens there.
yes, right to buy was a stupid policy, but whilst it caused a lot of issues, it's not the root of the current problems.
NHS is a massive f**k up.
too many fingers in the pie, PFI, IT projects, management muppety, fraud, etc all have their part, but the biggest growth areas are A&E and midwifery.
Give me some examples of social housing where immigrants have had a major impact please?yes, right to buy was a stupid policy, but whilst it caused a lot of issues, it's not the root of the current problems.
NHS is a massive f**k up.
too many fingers in the pie, PFI, IT projects, management muppety, fraud, etc all have their part, but the biggest growth areas are A&E and midwifery.
I also suggest that the reason why A&E & Midwifery are having problems is not because they are massively over-subscribed by immigrants, but because the funding is going elsewhere. I can't beleive that more people are getting saucepans stuck on their head now, than they were 50 years ago
however, that's just the tip of the problem, the big one being the way that because they come in with no family support network etc, they get put right at the top of the list along with their pregnant partners etc.
I live in the Midlands, for someone to suggest that unrestricted immigration has not caused a massive increase in requirements locally for houses, school places and NHS funding would suggest they have not dealt with any of these issues over the last 15 years. Some people I know appreciate that it can place a strain but value the benefits of uncontrolled immigration over the disadvantages - fair enough, but to not see that it has an effect on planning and provision of these services seems nuts.
My eldest is 13 and youngest 3 years old. The local primary school has always been a pleasant melting pot of people as a new town with lots of foreign owned companies. The demographics have changed to more EU country parents, but most striking has been the lack of spaces and larger classes. As a school governor I was aware of the funding issues which make offering places easier for pupils who qualify for free school meals. So the school places are now inadequate.
The need to provide housing for more people means we have had several hundred houses built with no new schools. ( common to the whole area not just us ) The latest plan means another 2,000 houses. The increased infrascruture comprises of a new secondary school of 1000 places. Unfortunately this was first promised 20 years ago and will arrive with enough capacity for 20 years ago. The local Labour Authority seems pretty poor at planning, but how could they foresee what's needed when no one has a clue how many people they must plan for in a year or twos time.
The NHS faces similar local issues. The last time we were in the maternity ward the ratio of mums who spoke English was lower.
Locally it's a conservative parish, but UKIP are making ground here. We aren't left behind little Englanders... the demographics are relatively young, but we are facing difficult issues and the explanation that immigration is of no consequence is nonsense. It's like planning a BBQ with no idea how many are coming.
Debating the costs versus rewards would make sense but we have instead had a ridiculous situation where the two main parties have tried to avoid debate by labelling anyone who wants controlled immigration as racist. Then when the issues become blindingly obvious to their core voters they both state they want more controlled immigration, but won't explain how that is possible within the EU.
Lots of UKIP support here comes from immigrant children like myself and locally immigrants from the Indian subcontinent. Labelling us all 'left behinds' is nonsense. I feel maligned and ignored but not left behind. UKIP have made the debate genuine IMO.
EDIT TO ADD : immigration still isn't my biggest issue with the EU, and consequently not my strongest encouragement to vote UKIP, but ignoring the issues of relatively uncontrolled immigration does seem common to pro-EU parties like the conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems.
My eldest is 13 and youngest 3 years old. The local primary school has always been a pleasant melting pot of people as a new town with lots of foreign owned companies. The demographics have changed to more EU country parents, but most striking has been the lack of spaces and larger classes. As a school governor I was aware of the funding issues which make offering places easier for pupils who qualify for free school meals. So the school places are now inadequate.
The need to provide housing for more people means we have had several hundred houses built with no new schools. ( common to the whole area not just us ) The latest plan means another 2,000 houses. The increased infrascruture comprises of a new secondary school of 1000 places. Unfortunately this was first promised 20 years ago and will arrive with enough capacity for 20 years ago. The local Labour Authority seems pretty poor at planning, but how could they foresee what's needed when no one has a clue how many people they must plan for in a year or twos time.
The NHS faces similar local issues. The last time we were in the maternity ward the ratio of mums who spoke English was lower.
Locally it's a conservative parish, but UKIP are making ground here. We aren't left behind little Englanders... the demographics are relatively young, but we are facing difficult issues and the explanation that immigration is of no consequence is nonsense. It's like planning a BBQ with no idea how many are coming.
Debating the costs versus rewards would make sense but we have instead had a ridiculous situation where the two main parties have tried to avoid debate by labelling anyone who wants controlled immigration as racist. Then when the issues become blindingly obvious to their core voters they both state they want more controlled immigration, but won't explain how that is possible within the EU.
Lots of UKIP support here comes from immigrant children like myself and locally immigrants from the Indian subcontinent. Labelling us all 'left behinds' is nonsense. I feel maligned and ignored but not left behind. UKIP have made the debate genuine IMO.
EDIT TO ADD : immigration still isn't my biggest issue with the EU, and consequently not my strongest encouragement to vote UKIP, but ignoring the issues of relatively uncontrolled immigration does seem common to pro-EU parties like the conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems.
Edited by brenflys777 on Monday 1st September 19:39
tangerine_sedge said:
I wrote a very long post only to have an Oracle error on submit - here are the highlights..
Housing - I don't have any numbers at hand, so I'll willingly concede the assertion if you can disprove it (see how I've made it your problem ). The point I'm making is that the problem is not entirely due to immigrants. There simply aren't enough houses being built.
There is not enough housing stock full stop. Blame the 1980's policies of right to buy, whilst also stopping councils from building more social housing stock for that.
NHS - 50 years ago, the NHS was able to provide a simple level of care. Now it is expected to support a vast array of expensive treatments. Have a cancer 50 years ago, and your treatment would have consisted of hope and pray, now it's surgery, complex treatements and expensive courses of drugs. Add to this, that people are now living much longer (my grandparents died in their 60's, my parents are approaching 80) and therefore claiming pensions for much longer too.
The current social problems are not the fault of immigrants, or the EU, but the last 50 years of under-investment and ignoring the problem by all politicians.
What we need are politicians who accept this, and just don't blame whoever is unpopular in a pathetic attempt to garner votes.
"The point I'm making is that the problem is not entirely due to immigrants. There simply aren't enough houses being built.".......that may well be the case but the nub of the mater is, regardless of blame, the UK can not keep taking in immigrants until it can accommodate those already here.Housing - I don't have any numbers at hand, so I'll willingly concede the assertion if you can disprove it (see how I've made it your problem
). The point I'm making is that the problem is not entirely due to immigrants. There simply aren't enough houses being built.There is not enough housing stock full stop. Blame the 1980's policies of right to buy, whilst also stopping councils from building more social housing stock for that.
NHS - 50 years ago, the NHS was able to provide a simple level of care. Now it is expected to support a vast array of expensive treatments. Have a cancer 50 years ago, and your treatment would have consisted of hope and pray, now it's surgery, complex treatements and expensive courses of drugs. Add to this, that people are now living much longer (my grandparents died in their 60's, my parents are approaching 80) and therefore claiming pensions for much longer too.
The current social problems are not the fault of immigrants, or the EU, but the last 50 years of under-investment and ignoring the problem by all politicians.
What we need are politicians who accept this, and just don't blame whoever is unpopular in a pathetic attempt to garner votes.
Similar to the above........if the NHS can't cope with providing newer treatments or people living longer then, uncharitable as it may sound, it can not provide them for an extra 250k year on year - or are you suggesting euthanasia to accommodate them?
Once again as above........ social problems are not entirely the fault of immigrants or the EU, but they do exist and until they are addressed I don't think it is wise to add another 250k to the problem year on year.
It is not about blaming people to garner votes and I for one will be pleased to see all of the parties' manifestos on all issues HS2, Fracking, defence spending etc etc so perhaps then the tired old subject of immigration becomes less of an issue on this forum than it has been for so long now.
ETA howsabout discussing this EU transfer of power instead of banging on about immigration?
http://www.ukip.org/king_case_shows_danger_of_eaw
Edited by mrpurple on Monday 1st September 19:51
tangerine_sedge said:
Scuffers said:
I have worked in social housing, and I don't think you actually understand what happens there.
yes, right to buy was a stupid policy, but whilst it caused a lot of issues, it's not the root of the current problems.
NHS is a massive f**k up.
too many fingers in the pie, PFI, IT projects, management muppety, fraud, etc all have their part, but the biggest growth areas are A&E and midwifery.
Give me some examples of social housing where immigrants have had a major impact please?yes, right to buy was a stupid policy, but whilst it caused a lot of issues, it's not the root of the current problems.
NHS is a massive f**k up.
too many fingers in the pie, PFI, IT projects, management muppety, fraud, etc all have their part, but the biggest growth areas are A&E and midwifery.
I also suggest that the reason why A&E & Midwifery are having problems is not because they are massively over-subscribed by immigrants, but because the funding is going elsewhere. I can't beleive that more people are getting saucepans stuck on their head now, than they were 50 years ago
Errr first council housing project in Perth for over 3 decades.
First set of keys go to an unmarried Polish couple with a child.
How's that for a kick in the knackers for all those who fork up year in year out for their council tax here....
mrpurple said:
ETA howsabout discussing this EU transfer of power instead of banging on about immigration?
This is something I'm more interested in, and I think the majority of UKIP supporters/sympathisers on here. However for someone with a passing interest in politics the topic of immigration is far easier to grasp, easier for them to visualise, understand, and articulate (too many people!).This is why it has been capitalised upon and remains quite stubbornly in the news. When you start trying to evaluate the failings of the EU parliament system and which laws originate from there (or perhaps are from Westminster but shaped by the EU... but by how much?!) 99% of the population switches over to Eastenders.
Guam said:
"We plan to change Britain with a sweeping redistribution of power: from the state to citizens; from the government to Parliament; from Whitehall to communities; from Brussels to Britain; from bureaucracy to democracy. Taking power away from the political elite and handing it to the man and woman in the street."- Conservative party manifesto 2010
steveT350C said:
Apology accepted
Well, I've still missed it, surely you want to point me in the right direction? I've read the whole article and I can't find anything that contradicts what I have mentioned. mrpurple said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
Stuff
"That is also my understanding, so I don't see the problem?" ............ as I said before.....No should mean no regardless of country of origin - end of."quite a large percentage of the UKIP supporters biggest concern is immigration." .... just one aspect of a whole raft of issues we (the UK)can not control whilst in the EU i.e. wattage of vacuum cleaners etc etc I can't speak for other, or the poll, but for me, control of borders / immigration is only one of many (just look at the myriad of EU rules, regs etc) that we (the UK) have to conform to whether we want to or not.
"If I've missed something obvious, I apologise."....no need to apologise none of us are perfect
Ok, so you personally have a grievance with many of the rulings that the EU imposes, but we are still one of those member states. As you say, you can't speak for the majority of those UKIP supporters polled, which really was my original question.
Transmitter Man said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
I hear a lot of people saying that "we've lost control of our borders". What do they mean by this? I recently drove from the UK to Germany, via France, Belgium and Holland but did not once have to produce my ID to anyone...except when leaving the UK and trying to re-enter it...how much more control do we need?
Speed,I hope this goes some way to answer your question:
Hyde Park: http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01509/S...
Ruined home from illegal occupation in East London: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-145649...
Benefits fraud: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/may/17/traffick...
BTW, please don't think I'm just targeting Romanians as the above was just picked at random.
I'm pretty sure I've read of similar Albanians & Bulgarians.
Just my 2p, your views may differ.
Phil
My grand parents were immigrants and my wife's parents were immigrants and it's actually quite difficult to think of many friends who have got English ancestry going beyond their great grandparents. My best friends Mum is German, my other good friends Mum was Irish and his Dad was Indian. Another friend is in a committed relationship with a Polish girl and two of my good friends are Hungarian.
I just can't be in a position to angry by those images or articles, compared with my actual life experiences with immigrants and the indigenous population.
mrpurple said:
FiF said:
ewed.
Personally surprised how high immigration is on people's priority as it's not very high on mine..
Not very high on mine either but I think it is a priority because it is linked to so many other issues, school places, NHS, jobs, houses etc.Personally surprised how high immigration is on people's priority as it's not very high on mine..
Another factor is, until fairly recently, you could not voice concerns about the elephant in the room and all it brings with it without being branded or ridiculed. Now, thanks predominantly to UKIP you can so people are.
Conservative Home on Douglas Carswell leaving the party.
Link
Can imagine them being pissed off with all the constituents coming up to congratulate him whilst they were trying to do an interview.
Ten words at the start of the piece. David Cameron cannot be trusted to implement serious political reform.
Told ya so.
Link
Can imagine them being pissed off with all the constituents coming up to congratulate him whilst they were trying to do an interview.
Ten words at the start of the piece. David Cameron cannot be trusted to implement serious political reform.
Told ya so.
Guam said:
At least Farage was honest about the UKIP manifesto being utter tripe from 2010.
Will Zod and others acknowledge that the Tory manifesto was also utter drivel?
But but but it was those nasty pasty Lib Dems. Don't you understand what being in a coalition means?Will Zod and others acknowledge that the Tory manifesto was also utter drivel?
/Zod/Wombat/et al
SpeedMattersNot said:
Indeed, all those extra staff in schools, builders, NHS staff are very much needed!
Then utilise, train, educate, motivate, by use the carrot and or the stick if necessary, those already here 1st and then fill any remaining vacancies with immigrants (from wherever the best source is not just the EU) once that's done.Conservative Home said:
Carswell certainly possesses an outsider’s ability to be deeply shocked when he discovers how the world works. In March this year, he attended the Königswinter Conference in Cambridge, an annual meeting of senior German and British policymakers. It was the top people from Whitehall, not Berlin, who horrified Carswell by expressing contempt for the policy, set out in Cameron’s Bloomberg speech in January 2013, of obtaining reform in Europe and then allowing the British people to accept or reject the deal in a referendum:
“Yes, I was shocked, I thought the Government was serious about change. And I sat in rooms listening to some very senior people, who unlike me are not democratically accountable, who clearly decide things, and who were just contemptuously dismissive. And when I raised very mild suggestions and put some questions, or even when I was just listening, they were smirkingly, eyeball-rollingly contemptuous of even the most modest treaty reforms. There was almost a sense of ‘we know best’. And yes we’ve got to say these things to the voters because of course you know the Prime Minister has got to win the next election, because you know, rest assured, we don’t mean it and it’s not going to happen. As I say, it’s trust. The Bloomberg trust went. That was a key moment, and it’s a key moment I can talk about in fairly specific terms without breaching confidences. If I give you other key moments you’ll know who I’m talking about and that wouldn’t be fair.”
In January this year, Carswell still believed Cameron was sincere in pursuing genuine reform followed by a referendum. Now Carswell thinks the Prime Minister’s attitude can be summed up by a line from Giuseppe di Lampedusa’s novel The Leopard: “If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change.” The Prime Minister, Carswell reckons, is intent on keeping us in the EU by making some minor changes.
“Yes, I was shocked, I thought the Government was serious about change. And I sat in rooms listening to some very senior people, who unlike me are not democratically accountable, who clearly decide things, and who were just contemptuously dismissive. And when I raised very mild suggestions and put some questions, or even when I was just listening, they were smirkingly, eyeball-rollingly contemptuous of even the most modest treaty reforms. There was almost a sense of ‘we know best’. And yes we’ve got to say these things to the voters because of course you know the Prime Minister has got to win the next election, because you know, rest assured, we don’t mean it and it’s not going to happen. As I say, it’s trust. The Bloomberg trust went. That was a key moment, and it’s a key moment I can talk about in fairly specific terms without breaching confidences. If I give you other key moments you’ll know who I’m talking about and that wouldn’t be fair.”
In January this year, Carswell still believed Cameron was sincere in pursuing genuine reform followed by a referendum. Now Carswell thinks the Prime Minister’s attitude can be summed up by a line from Giuseppe di Lampedusa’s novel The Leopard: “If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change.” The Prime Minister, Carswell reckons, is intent on keeping us in the EU by making some minor changes.
FiF said:
Guam said:
At least Farage was honest about the UKIP manifesto being utter tripe from 2010.
Will Zod and others acknowledge that the Tory manifesto was also utter drivel?
But but but it was those nasty pasty Lib Dems. Don't you understand what being in a coalition means?Will Zod and others acknowledge that the Tory manifesto was also utter drivel?
/Zod/Wombat/et al
As for the Tories, they have compromised their manifesto rather less than Clegg's LibDems have. It's obvious that coalition involves trade-offs. The worst of those for the Tories has been the boundary review that was blocked by the pusilanimous s
t, Clegg. Guam said:
Zod said:
Carswell is self-serving.
No manifesto is adhered to in full. Much less so in coalition. UKIP's was made up after one pint too many.
As opposed to the Tories which was made up after one Pimms too many?No manifesto is adhered to in full. Much less so in coalition. UKIP's was made up after one pint too many.
Zod said:
Einion Yrth said:
Zod said:
Carswell is self-serving.
Really? Looks to me like he's one of very few who seeks to serve his constituents.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff