UKIP - The Future - Volume 2

[Wombat3]

FiF said:

0a said:

Guardian said:

David Cameron willing to recommend vote to leave EU in referendum

David Cameron has indicated that he would be prepared to recommend to the British people that they should vote to leave the EU if he fails to secure major changes to Britain’s membership terms after a Tory victory in next year’s general election.

Amid renewed pressure on the prime minister over Europe after Mark Reckless became the second Conservative MP to defect to the anti-EU Ukip, Cameron said he was confident he would change the rules of benefits in the EU and would secure a British opt-out from the EU’s founding declaration to create an “ever closer union”.

But Cameron, who dismissed the defection of Reckless as “counter-productive and rather senseless”, indicated he might be prepared to recommend a no vote in his planned EU membership referendum in 2017.

Link

Hmmm, I'll wait and see. What's the betting that the 'concessions' (in reality nothing) the PM manages to get will just swing it in favour of him recommending a yes vote...

Anyway we're starting to see some movement from the Tories.

But see elsewhere in that article. He is already saying that restrictions would only apply to new member states who would then get full access when their economies had reached a certain level.

So basically nothing then.

Cameron weasel words. Bin him. Christ I would rather have Miliband than that prat.

Still unfathomable as to why you are so afraid of a bit of democracy. Cameron will negotiate whatever he negotiates & he will recommend whatever he recommends.

All of it makes no odds to the way you or others will vote & doubtless if you (UKIP) think that whatever he negotiates is not worth the paper its written on then you will not be slow in explaining why to all and sundry who can then vote as they see fit.

Somehow you just don't seen too keen on that test though....

Worse than the Scots Nats really Democracy's fine, but only if you win eh?

[BJG1]

steveT350C said:

I apologise if I came across a bit aggressive.

Do you know why UKIP were against the gay marriage law?

Yes, as a cynical, vote-grabbing tactic to make sure some unpleasant people who don't find the Tories right-wing enough anymore vote for UKIP now.

[steveT350C]

BJG1 said:

steveT350C said:

I apologise if I came across a bit aggressive.

Do you know why UKIP were against the gay marriage law?

Yes, as a cynical, vote-grabbing tactic to make sure some unpleasant people who don't find the Tories right-wing enough anymore vote for UKIP now.

So you don't know then. Try UKIP website

[FiF]

Wombat3 said:

FiF said:

0a said:

Guardian said:

David Cameron willing to recommend vote to leave EU in referendum

David Cameron has indicated that he would be prepared to recommend to the British people that they should vote to leave the EU if he fails to secure major changes to Britain’s membership terms after a Tory victory in next year’s general election.

Amid renewed pressure on the prime minister over Europe after Mark Reckless became the second Conservative MP to defect to the anti-EU Ukip, Cameron said he was confident he would change the rules of benefits in the EU and would secure a British opt-out from the EU’s founding declaration to create an “ever closer union”.

But Cameron, who dismissed the defection of Reckless as “counter-productive and rather senseless”, indicated he might be prepared to recommend a no vote in his planned EU membership referendum in 2017.

Link

Hmmm, I'll wait and see. What's the betting that the 'concessions' (in reality nothing) the PM manages to get will just swing it in favour of him recommending a yes vote...

Anyway we're starting to see some movement from the Tories.

But see elsewhere in that article. He is already saying that restrictions would only apply to new member states who would then get full access when their economies had reached a certain level.

So basically nothing then.

Cameron weasel words. Bin him. Christ I would rather have Miliband than that prat.

Still unfathomable as to why you are so afraid of a bit of democracy. Cameron will negotiate whatever he negotiates & he will recommend whatever he recommends.

All of it makes no odds to the way you or others will vote & doubtless if you (UKIP) think that whatever he negotiates is not worth the paper its written on then you will not be slow in explaining why to all and sundry who can then vote as they see fit.

Somehow you just don't seen too keen on that test though....

Worse than the Scots Nats really Democracy's fine, but only if you win eh?

Been on the pop marsupial?

Sorry but yours was such a cretinous post with no connection or relevance to what I wrote that you are clearly on some sort of mind altering substance.

[0a]

Wombat3 said:

Worse than the Scots Nats really Democracy's fine, but only if you win eh?

The Tories will lose the next election and Cameron will no longer be Tory leader. Democracy is fine by me

[steveT350C]

FiF said:

Wombat3 said:

FiF said:

0a said:

Guardian said:

David Cameron willing to recommend vote to leave EU in referendum

David Cameron has indicated that he would be prepared to recommend to the British people that they should vote to leave the EU if he fails to secure major changes to Britain’s membership terms after a Tory victory in next year’s general election.

Amid renewed pressure on the prime minister over Europe after Mark Reckless became the second Conservative MP to defect to the anti-EU Ukip, Cameron said he was confident he would change the rules of benefits in the EU and would secure a British opt-out from the EU’s founding declaration to create an “ever closer union”.

But Cameron, who dismissed the defection of Reckless as “counter-productive and rather senseless”, indicated he might be prepared to recommend a no vote in his planned EU membership referendum in 2017.

Link

Hmmm, I'll wait and see. What's the betting that the 'concessions' (in reality nothing) the PM manages to get will just swing it in favour of him recommending a yes vote...

Anyway we're starting to see some movement from the Tories.

But see elsewhere in that article. He is already saying that restrictions would only apply to new member states who would then get full access when their economies had reached a certain level.

So basically nothing then.

Cameron weasel words. Bin him. Christ I would rather have Miliband than that prat.

Still unfathomable as to why you are so afraid of a bit of democracy. Cameron will negotiate whatever he negotiates & he will recommend whatever he recommends.

All of it makes no odds to the way you or others will vote & doubtless if you (UKIP) think that whatever he negotiates is not worth the paper its written on then you will not be slow in explaining why to all and sundry who can then vote as they see fit.

Somehow you just don't seen too keen on that test though....

Worse than the Scots Nats really Democracy's fine, but only if you win eh?

Been on the pop marsupial?

Sorry but yours was such a cretinous post with no connection or relevance to what I wrote that you are clearly on some sort of mind altering substance.

Sometimes he just forgets which profile he is using....

[brenflys777]

I think wombat - like the conservatives - is failing to understand that voting for someone other than Labour or themselves isn't a wasted vote but an embodiment of democracy in action. The idea that people won't vote for the least bad option rather than the candidate or party that best represents your views must be difficult to cope with after years of a feeling of entitlement.

The media even without free drinks will have to cover the results of the elections. 3 chances soon of UKIP taking conservative or labour seats. The comments from Grant Shapps that Mark Reckless is deceitful etc seem hard to balance against his opting for a by election where his constituents get a vote.

[Wombat3]

FiF said:

Wombat3 said:

FiF said:

0a said:

Guardian said:

David Cameron willing to recommend vote to leave EU in referendum

David Cameron has indicated that he would be prepared to recommend to the British people that they should vote to leave the EU if he fails to secure major changes to Britain’s membership terms after a Tory victory in next year’s general election.

Amid renewed pressure on the prime minister over Europe after Mark Reckless became the second Conservative MP to defect to the anti-EU Ukip, Cameron said he was confident he would change the rules of benefits in the EU and would secure a British opt-out from the EU’s founding declaration to create an “ever closer union”.

But Cameron, who dismissed the defection of Reckless as “counter-productive and rather senseless”, indicated he might be prepared to recommend a no vote in his planned EU membership referendum in 2017.

Link

Hmmm, I'll wait and see. What's the betting that the 'concessions' (in reality nothing) the PM manages to get will just swing it in favour of him recommending a yes vote...

Anyway we're starting to see some movement from the Tories.

But see elsewhere in that article. He is already saying that restrictions would only apply to new member states who would then get full access when their economies had reached a certain level.

So basically nothing then.

Cameron weasel words. Bin him. Christ I would rather have Miliband than that prat.

Still unfathomable as to why you are so afraid of a bit of democracy. Cameron will negotiate whatever he negotiates & he will recommend whatever he recommends.

All of it makes no odds to the way you or others will vote & doubtless if you (UKIP) think that whatever he negotiates is not worth the paper its written on then you will not be slow in explaining why to all and sundry who can then vote as they see fit.

Somehow you just don't seen too keen on that test though....

Worse than the Scots Nats really Democracy's fine, but only if you win eh?

Been on the pop marsupial?

Sorry but yours was such a cretinous post with no connection or relevance to what I wrote that you are clearly on some sort of mind altering substance.

No. I think it goes right to the heart of the whole attitude you & yours seem to have to the negotiation/referendum proposals.

[brenflys777]

Talking of Grant Shapps - do you think now he's taken the high moral ground that Mark Reckless is deceitful having opted to join UKIP and offer his constituents the option to re-elect him - will he be asking Brooks Newman to seek reelection, rather than continue to represent the conservatives as an MP?

[Wombat3]

steveT350C said:

Sometimes he just forgets which profile he is using....

Sorry, only one profile here. If you think otherwise, feel free to raise it with the mods, they'll sort that out in 5 minutes flat.

[don4l]

So... how many seats do we think that UKIP are going into the general election with?

So far we have two, but I reckon that Nigel has a few more up his sleeve.

Will the next defector be from Labour?

[steveT350C]

Wombat3 said:

steveT350C said:

Sometimes he just forgets which profile he is using....

Sorry, only one profile here. If you think otherwise, feel free to raise it with the mods, they'll sort that out in 5 minutes flat.

I will hold you to that, so be careful

[Wombat3]

steveT350C said:

Wombat3 said:

steveT350C said:

Sometimes he just forgets which profile he is using....

Sorry, only one profile here. If you think otherwise, feel free to raise it with the mods, they'll sort that out in 5 minutes flat.

I will hold you to that, so be careful

You are actually warning me? Too funny.

(but it'll never be a problem, never has been, never will be).

[Wombat3]

don4l said:

So... how many seats do we think that UKIP are going into the general election with?

So far we have two, but I reckon that Nigel has a few more up his sleeve.

Will the next defector be from Labour?

They have to keep the two they have first. Carswell will keep his, Reckless I am not so sure about. We will see in a few weeks

[FiF]

Wombat3 said:

FiF said:

Wombat3 said:

FiF said:

0a said:

Guardian said:

David Cameron willing to recommend vote to leave EU in referendum

David Cameron has indicated that he would be prepared to recommend to the British people that they should vote to leave the EU if he fails to secure major changes to Britain’s membership terms after a Tory victory in next year’s general election.

Amid renewed pressure on the prime minister over Europe after Mark Reckless became the second Conservative MP to defect to the anti-EU Ukip, Cameron said he was confident he would change the rules of benefits in the EU and would secure a British opt-out from the EU’s founding declaration to create an “ever closer union”.

But Cameron, who dismissed the defection of Reckless as “counter-productive and rather senseless”, indicated he might be prepared to recommend a no vote in his planned EU membership referendum in 2017.

Link

Hmmm, I'll wait and see. What's the betting that the 'concessions' (in reality nothing) the PM manages to get will just swing it in favour of him recommending a yes vote...

Anyway we're starting to see some movement from the Tories.

But see elsewhere in that article. He is already saying that restrictions would only apply to new member states who would then get full access when their economies had reached a certain level.

So basically nothing then.

Cameron weasel words. Bin him. Christ I would rather have Miliband than that prat.

Still unfathomable as to why you are so afraid of a bit of democracy. Cameron will negotiate whatever he negotiates & he will recommend whatever he recommends.

All of it makes no odds to the way you or others will vote & doubtless if you (UKIP) think that whatever he negotiates is not worth the paper its written on then you will not be slow in explaining why to all and sundry who can then vote as they see fit.

Somehow you just don't seen too keen on that test though....

Worse than the Scots Nats really Democracy's fine, but only if you win eh?

Been on the pop marsupial?

Sorry but yours was such a cretinous post with no connection or relevance to what I wrote that you are clearly on some sort of mind altering substance.

No. I think it goes right to the heart of the whole attitude you & yours seem to have to the negotiation/referendum proposals.

No you are a fool who lets your inaccurate preconceptions rule and you make assumptions with no foundation.

I see Cameron who has openly stated his intention is to keep UK in the EU talking about reform. But he won't say what reform he would like except in the wooliest of terms if any. Usually there is nothing.

Then he talks about he could recommend an out vote but fails, like the rest of you, to specify any issues which are lines in the sand that would mean such a recommendation.

It is opinion, and that's all it is, that he will negotiate nothing of any worth. Alternatively he will make some agreements so that he can say that he has got concessions but on balance it is better to stay in.

Could be wrong could be right but that's my opinion.

What I say is let him have the negotiations. Put whatever case he can forward and let us judge. If he makes the case then I will vote for in. If he doesn't then I will vote for out.

Whichever way I vote if the result goes against me, just as with the referendum in the 70s, the democratic result will be accepted and will move on for a generation. Even Blair inferred the case had to be made once every generation.

But you think that means afraid of democracy and unwilling to accept a democratic process and a decision therefrom.

You are a fool. There is no other way of putting it .

[mrpurple]

steveT350C said:

FiF said:

Wombat3 said:

FiF said:

0a said:

Guardian said:

David Cameron willing to recommend vote to leave EU in referendum

David Cameron has indicated that he would be prepared to recommend to the British people that they should vote to leave the EU if he fails to secure major changes to Britain’s membership terms after a Tory victory in next year’s general election.

Amid renewed pressure on the prime minister over Europe after Mark Reckless became the second Conservative MP to defect to the anti-EU Ukip, Cameron said he was confident he would change the rules of benefits in the EU and would secure a British opt-out from the EU’s founding declaration to create an “ever closer union”.

But Cameron, who dismissed the defection of Reckless as “counter-productive and rather senseless”, indicated he might be prepared to recommend a no vote in his planned EU membership referendum in 2017.

Link

Hmmm, I'll wait and see. What's the betting that the 'concessions' (in reality nothing) the PM manages to get will just swing it in favour of him recommending a yes vote...

Anyway we're starting to see some movement from the Tories.

But see elsewhere in that article. He is already saying that restrictions would only apply to new member states who would then get full access when their economies had reached a certain level.

So basically nothing then.

Cameron weasel words. Bin him. Christ I would rather have Miliband than that prat.

Still unfathomable as to why you are so afraid of a bit of democracy. Cameron will negotiate whatever he negotiates & he will recommend whatever he recommends.

All of it makes no odds to the way you or others will vote & doubtless if you (UKIP) think that whatever he negotiates is not worth the paper its written on then you will not be slow in explaining why to all and sundry who can then vote as they see fit.

Somehow you just don't seen too keen on that test though....

Worse than the Scots Nats really Democracy's fine, but only if you win eh?

Been on the pop marsupial?

Sorry but yours was such a cretinous post with no connection or relevance to what I wrote that you are clearly on some sort of mind altering substance.

Sometimes he just forgets which profile he is using....

[steveT350C]

Wombat3 said:

steveT350C said:

Wombat3 said:

steveT350C said:

Sometimes he just forgets which profile he is using....

Sorry, only one profile here. If you think otherwise, feel free to raise it with the mods, they'll sort that out in 5 minutes flat.

I will hold you to that, so be careful

You are actually warning me? Too funny.

(but it'll never be a problem, never has been, never will be).

Ok

[don4l]

Wombat3 said:

don4l said:

So... how many seats do we think that UKIP are going into the general election with?

So far we have two, but I reckon that Nigel has a few more up his sleeve.

Will the next defector be from Labour?

They have to keep the two they have first. Carswell will keep his, Reckless I am not so sure about. We will see in a few weeks

Carswell will definitely win for UKIP. Over a thousand people turned (some in wheelchairs) up top hear him speak at a rally just a few days ago. I wouldn't worry about Reckless. I'm sure that he will also win the seat for UKIP.

If UKIP have 5 seats going into the election, then they will be the recipients of all the protest votes. The LibDems will be reduced to less than 10 seats, and UKIP will get more than 40.

If we have a Conservative/UKIP coalition, then I am sure that traditional Tories like yourself and Zod will be ecstatic. Nigel would not tolerate a "Blair" style government, which is what we have at the moment.

[BJG1]

steveT350C said:

So you don't know then. Try UKIP website

Well, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. They're not going to say it's for the reasons I've given, are they? I rather hope it isn't for the reasons Farage gave:

“First, we did not think it should have been made a political priority at a time of many other pressing issues and pointed out that the measure had no mandate from the electorate.
“Secondly we were concerned that because of the role of the European Court of Human Rights in British law that faith communities which had strong objections were at risk of being forced to conduct gay marriages.”

Which would be because gay rights aren't important enough to bother with at the moment and that some religious bigots didn't like it. Nice.

[Wombat3]

FiF said:

No you are a fool who lets your inaccurate preconceptions rule and you make assumptions with no foundation.

I see Cameron who has openly stated his intention is to keep UK in the EU talking about reform. But he won't say what reform he would like except in the wooliest of terms if any. Usually there is nothing.

Then he talks about he could recommend an out vote but fails, like the rest of you, to specify any issues which are lines in the sand that would mean such a recommendation.

It is opinion, and that's all it is, that he will negotiate nothing of any worth. Alternatively he will make some agreements so that he can say that he has got concessions but on balance it is better to stay in.

Could be wrong could be right but that's my opinion.

What I say is let him have the negotiations. Put whatever case he can forward and let us judge. If he makes the case then I will vote for in. If he doesn't then I will vote for out.

Whichever way I vote if the result goes against me, just as with the referendum in the 70s, the democratic result will be accepted and will move on for a generation. Even Blair inferred the case had to be made once every generation.

But you think that means afraid of democracy and unwilling to accept a democratic process and a decision therefrom.

You are a fool. There is no other way of putting it .

Stupid insults aside, we are therefore in some agreement. Let him do his negotiation & then vote on the outcome and that is unequivocally what is on the table.

Of course there are those who would like to get into a pissing contest now about exactly what powers can be recovered but the simple fact is neither he nor anyone else knows exactly (bearing in mind this has never been done before AFIAK) and we won't know till we start the process. Its also not binary & there are a million different potential outcomes. Suggesting therefore that we should know or be told now so we can judge something NOW (or else!) before the thing has even started is overly simplistic and utterly unrealistic.

But its also irrelevant in the context of actually having a vote to make a decision on the end result - whatever it may be. The important thing is that we actually have that vote, little else seems to matter as far as I can see.

In that context you either believe that he will do as he said on delivering that vote or you don't. If you do (and you want it that badly) then, logically, you put him in the position to deliver it.

Edited by Wombat3 on Sunday 28th September 20:15