UKIP - The Future - Volume 2

[Scuffers]

Greg66 said:

steveT350C said:

– Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees for students taking approved degrees in science, medicine, technology, engineering, maths on the condition that they live, work and pay tax in the UK for five years after the completion of their degrees.

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

how is this any different to the current system with student loans?

ie, person runs up £27K loan (3 years at £9K) then ship's out?

no worries though, I am sure a EU arrest warrant can be issued!

[FiF]

On a lighter note, as a World of Tanks player and visitor to the tank museum, couldn't resist this photo.







From Clacton by-election: Is this the day politics changes for ever?


Heywood, isn't it persisting it down there today? Doesn't Labour turnout drop when it rains?

[steveT350C]

Greg66 said:

steveT350C said:

– Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees for students taking approved degrees in science, medicine, technology, engineering, maths on the condition that they live, work and pay tax in the UK for five years after the completion of their degrees.

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

A good point. I had though of that too.

Currently anyone from an EU country can get a grant from the UK gov if studying full time in the UK. They then return to their country of origin and are sent repayment requests.

Of course this would not happen if the UK were outside of the EU.

UKIP's plan would only apply to UK residents. Not sure how many would complete their course then move abroad never to return, but it would be a lot less I believe than the current number of foreign students who return home never to pay the money back, or 'struggle to make repayments'. The number is about 14,000 from telegrapg below.

Looks like the student loans issue concerning repayments is bigger that I realised and not just with foreign students..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityedu...

[Timsta]

Greg66 said:

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

Withdraw the qualification?

[steveT350C]

Timsta said:

Greg66 said:

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

Withdraw the qualification?

The simplest ideas are often the best

[Zod]

steveT350C said:

Timsta said:

Greg66 said:

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

Withdraw the qualification?

The simplest ideas are often the best

Often, but not this one. You can't credibly withdraw an earned qualification.

I'd love to know whether there is anything in that list that you disagree with, Steve.

[mrpurple]

Zod said:

steveT350C said:

Timsta said:

Greg66 said:

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

Withdraw the qualification?

The simplest ideas are often the best

Often, but not this one. You can't credibly withdraw an earned qualification.

If you haven't paid for it.....why not? Try not paying your mortgage or finance on your car and see what happens.

[mrpurple]

Guam said:

mrpurple said:

I won't copy & paste the lot

"The following statements represent highlights of UKIP's policy announcements as made at the Doncaster Conference. More detailed announcements will be made in the run up to the 2015 General Election.

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people?utm_campai...

Thanks for that

You are welcome....not sure why the email was sent to me unless they think I am the PH branch chairman

Did other kipper members get it as well?

[Zod]

mrpurple said:

If you haven't paid for it.....why not? Try not paying your mortgage or finance on your car and see what happens.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You work for three years for a degree, take exams and are graded on your performance.You have achieved your grade whether a fantasy UKIP government tells you it has taken away your degree or not.

[dxg]

steveT350C said:

Greg66 said:

steveT350C said:

– Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees for students taking approved degrees in science, medicine, technology, engineering, maths on the condition that they live, work and pay tax in the UK for five years after the completion of their degrees.

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

A good point. I had though of that too.

Currently anyone from an EU country can get a grant from the UK gov if studying full time in the UK. They then return to their country of origin and are sent repayment requests.

Of course this would not happen if the UK were outside of the EU.

UKIP's plan would only apply to UK residents. Not sure how many would complete their course then move abroad never to return, but it would be a lot less I believe than the current number of foreign students who return home never to pay the money back, or 'struggle to make repayments'. The number is about 14,000 from telegrapg below.

Looks like the student loans issue concerning repayments is bigger that I realised and not just with foreign students..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityedu...

The irony of this situation is that, when failure to recover loans is considered, the new "self" funding regime will actually cost the UK more per student than the traditional black grant method.

[Scuffers]

dxg said:

The irony of this situation is that, when failure to recover loans is considered, the new "self" funding regime will actually cost the UK more per student than the traditional black grant method.

and, sadly, this was pointed out at the time...

problem was way too many screaming students without a brain.

[Esseesse]

Zod said:

mrpurple said:

If you haven't paid for it.....why not? Try not paying your mortgage or finance on your car and see what happens.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You work for three years for a degree, take exams and are graded on your performance.You have achieved your grade whether a fantasy UKIP government tells you it has taken away your degree or not.

TBH, if the accepted norm was to lookup a job applicants qualifications against an online database then this would probably be incentive enough to pay. If it was easy to do, looking up qualifications would probably become pretty normal.

Whilst you have a point that somebody who has done the work to gain a good degree will have that experience or knowledge regardless of whether they pay, if they don't (and most do) it will likely not look good to most employers that you're comfortable not paying for services you receive. Similar to applying for a job with a degree, and a criminal record.

[Timsta]

Zod said:

Often, but not this one. You can't credibly withdraw an earned qualification.

Of course you can. Plenty of institutions so it if you have not fully paid for your course. Quote common in the USA. You don't get your degree if you have outstanding parking tickets.

[anonymous-user]

mrpurple said:

Zod said:

steveT350C said:

Timsta said:

Greg66 said:

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

Withdraw the qualification?

The simplest ideas are often the best

Often, but not this one. You can't credibly withdraw an earned qualification.

If you haven't paid for it.....why not? Try not paying your mortgage or finance on your car and see what happens.

You don't buy your qualification the first place. You earn it. Not the same as houses/cars.

[Timsta]

Greg66 said:

You don't buy your qualification the first place. You earn it. Not the same as houses/cars.

Actually, you do both. It's not free.

[mrpurple]

Zod said:

mrpurple said:

If you haven't paid for it.....why not? Try not paying your mortgage or finance on your car and see what happens.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You work for three years for a degree, take exams and are graded on your performance.You have achieved your grade whether a fantasy UKIP government tells you it has taken away your degree or not.

So it is ok to rely on a qualification and have it verified by the issuing authority / university even though you have not paid to obtain it?

So in the PH context, for example passing your driving test, you will have a license issued and can legally drive a car even though you haven't paid all of the required fees? Try going to a trackday and telling them you haven't got your license because you haven't paid for it, but as you have taken, and passed your test, will they let you on track anyway....is that what you are saying?

[turbobloke]

Greg66 said:

mrpurple said:

Zod said:

steveT350C said:

Timsta said:

Greg66 said:

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

Withdraw the qualification?

The simplest ideas are often the best

Often, but not this one. You can't credibly withdraw an earned qualification.

If you haven't paid for it.....why not? Try not paying your mortgage or finance on your car and see what happens.

You don't buy your qualification the first place. You earn it. Not the same as houses/cars.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/denied-a-degree-ndash-because-she-hasnt-paid-her-rent-1771193.html

This was a test case with a degree being withheld due to unpaid rent. I didn't keep a track of what happened next.

As a general point, degrees can be rescinded at any time.

http://www.degreeinfo.com/general-distance-learnin...

[WinstonWolf]

zygalski said:

Art0ir said:

I couldn't care either way, for entirely selfish reasons. I only addressed it for entertainment, I was hoping you would read the first half of the post.

I disagree with the manifesto in its entirety. The part about Inheritance just took me by surprise, for reasons I gave above.

Even this?

– UKIP will ensure there is an initial presumption of 50/50 shared parenting in child custody matters and grandparents will be given visitation rights.

[Mrr T]

turbobloke said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/educat...

This was a test case with a degree being withheld due to unpaid rent. I didn't keep a track of what happened next.

As a general point, degrees can be rescinded at any time.

http://www.degreeinfo.com/general-distance-learnin...

We are not talking about withholding a degree. The degree will have been awarded but the person then leaves the UK within 5 years. Much more difficult to remove a degree where there are no academic grounds.

[turbobloke]

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/educat...

This was a test case with a degree being withheld due to unpaid rent. I didn't keep a track of what happened next.

As a general point, degrees can be rescinded at any time.

http://www.degreeinfo.com/general-distance-learnin...

We are not talking about withholding a degree. The degree will have been awarded but the person then leaves the UK within 5 years. Much more difficult to remove a degree where there are no academic grounds.

OK, I was merely covering both eventualities, but my second point and second link covered your reminder about removing a degree post-award" without academic grounds. It was, as advertised, a general point and the content at the link from university sources said: "Loss of Graduate Degree
* Other Reasons: Academic programs may rescind degree or certificate candidacy for other reasons not specified..."

Also

"Students with unmet financial (or other university) obligations resulting in the placement of a hold on their registration cannot receive a transcript, statement of completion, degree certificate, or diploma"

A comment made on 18 07 2010 said: "I think rescinding degrees might be a good idea for what to do with people who default on student loans" which again as a general point is entirely possible for non-academic reasons as outlined above and at the link.

This seemed relevant.

Edited by turbobloke on Thursday 9th October 12:54