UKIP - The Future - Volume 2

[Mrr T]

Guam said:

mrpurple said:

I won't copy & paste the lot

"The following statements represent highlights of UKIP's policy announcements as made at the Doncaster Conference. More detailed announcements will be made in the run up to the 2015 General Election.

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people?utm_campai...

Thanks for that

Yes thanks for that I could not stop laughing at:

"We would negotiate a bespoke trade agreement with the EU to enable our businesses to continue trading to mutual advantage."

I can imagine Nigel ringing up Mr Barroso. "Hi what's your name we want to negotiate a trade treaty"
Mr Barroso "Well not sure how we do that since you are already in a trade treaty with the EU"
Nigel "No we are leaving the EU and we want a trade treaty" (He should also ask to be a successor to all current EU treaty treaties but Nigel does not understand this)
Barroso "Have you given notice under Article 50"
Nige "No"
Barroso "Well we cannot really negotiate a trade treaty with a country in the EU with out a treaty change."
Nig "When can we get a treaty change"
Barroso "If all the other EU members agree I think we may get one by end of 2020 if not it may be some years later"
Nigel "If you do not give me what I want I will shout at you and go purple in the face"
Barross "So nice to speak to you" line goes dead.

Any connection between UKIP and an exit policy is................

[anonymous-user]

turbobloke said:

Greg66 said:

mrpurple said:

Zod said:

steveT350C said:

Timsta said:

Greg66 said:

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

Withdraw the qualification?

The simplest ideas are often the best

Often, but not this one. You can't credibly withdraw an earned qualification.

If you haven't paid for it.....why not? Try not paying your mortgage or finance on your car and see what happens.

You don't buy your qualification the first place. You earn it. Not the same as houses/cars.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/denied-a-degree-ndash-because-she-hasnt-paid-her-rent-1771193.html

This was a test case with a degree being withheld due to unpaid rent. I didn't keep a track of what happened next.

As a general point, degrees can be rescinded at any time.

http://www.degreeinfo.com/general-distance-learnin...

It is the University that withdraws the degree, being the entity that confers it.

The UKIP policy - "UKIP will remove tuition fees for students taking approved degrees in science, medicine, technology, engineering, maths on the condition that they live, work and pay tax in the UK for five years after the completion of their degrees" - is centred around the Government paying tuition fees on the back of a promise as to future conduct. If the promise is broken, it's the Govt and not the University that is out of pocket.

The Govt doesn't have the "stick" of withdrawal of a degree with which to threaten the defaulting graduate.

It could acquire that stick, I suppose, by threatening to claw back from the University the tuition fees because the graduate broke his/her promise to the Govt; thereby leaving the Uni to threaten the graduate with "pay up or lose your degree". But ultimately the financial loser there may well end up being the University rather than the graduate, which is not remotely what this policy appears to be about.

So simplest idea doesn't really fly, and policing this idea remains somewhat unclear.

[turbobloke]

Mrr T said:

Any connection between UKIP and an exit policy is................

Probably derived from either the Mansfield essay or the Bruges Group document or the North document 'Flexcit'

[FiF]

The absence of a Tory thread means I will post this here.

Tories today crowing about Dave's victory in EU migrant rules.

All that it is when boiled down is that theEU are ssaying transitional arrangements could apply for any new member states joining in the future. Which clearly is nothing new.

Seriously Tory supporters, it's duplicitous rubbish like this which will harm you in the long run. Don't ask people to trust Dave when stunts like this are being pulled.

[wc98]

steveT350C said:

Timsta said:

Greg66 said:

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

Withdraw the qualification?

The simplest ideas are often the best

could be used as a training exercise for potential special forces/intelligence agency bods, track them down and assassinate them if they do not pay.

[wc98]

Scuffers said:

and, sadly, this was pointed out at the time...

problem was way too many screaming students without a brain.

yes,it would appear they all became climatologists.

[crofty1984]

Odd to say, but if UKIP didn't want to pull us out of Europe I'd probably vote for them.
I do think we're better off in the EU than out though.

[mrpurple]

wc98 said:

steveT350C said:

Timsta said:

Greg66 said:

How's that going to be policed?

The students get the benefit of no tuition fees during their degrees, then leave the country never to return. A UKIP Govt would really track these people down and sue them in a country where they have assets? Sounds implausible.

Withdraw the qualification?

The simplest ideas are often the best

could be used as a training exercise for potential special forces/intelligence agency bods, track them down and assassinate them if they do not pay.

So students leaving the UK and not paying back their fees is not an issue? or is it too hard to police so we put it in the "too difficult to deal with box"?

[crofty1984]

Zod said:

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You work for three years for a degree, take exams and are graded on your performance.You have achieved your grade whether a fantasy UKIP government tells you it has taken away your degree or not.

I assumed it would work like the standard student loans system, but after 5 years living working and taxing in the UK, they'd write off the debt?

[sjn2004]

Mrr T said:

Guam said:

mrpurple said:

I won't copy & paste the lot

"The following statements represent highlights of UKIP's policy announcements as made at the Doncaster Conference. More detailed announcements will be made in the run up to the 2015 General Election.

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people?utm_campai...

Thanks for that

Yes thanks for that I could not stop laughing at:

"We would negotiate a bespoke trade agreement with the EU to enable our businesses to continue trading to mutual advantage."

I can imagine Nigel ringing up Mr Barroso. "Hi what's your name we want to negotiate a trade treaty"
Mr Barroso "Well not sure how we do that since you are already in a trade treaty with the EU"
Nigel "No we are leaving the EU and we want a trade treaty" (He should also ask to be a successor to all current EU treaty treaties but Nigel does not understand this)
Barroso "Have you given notice under Article 50"
Nige "No"
Barroso "Well we cannot really negotiate a trade treaty with a country in the EU with out a treaty change."
Nig "When can we get a treaty change"
Barroso "If all the other EU members agree I think we may get one by end of 2020 if not it may be some years later"
Nigel "If you do not give me what I want I will shout at you and go purple in the face"
Barross "So nice to speak to you" line goes dead.

Any connection between UKIP and an exit policy is................

Then Merkel makes a call and we get a trade deal otherwise the German car industry collapses. They SELL us more than we BUY from them. The cards are in our hands.

[brenflys777]

crofty1984 said:

Odd to say, but if UKIP didn't want to pull us out of Europe I'd probably vote for them.
I do think we're better off in the EU than out though.

I don't think it's an odd thing to say at all. Pulling out of the EU as it stands now is obviously the key part of UKIP. Without an exit they wouldn't be able to deliver on lots of the other policies because it would fall foul of the EU rules or the associated courts. Unfortunately I think Cameron and to a lesser extent Milliband are trying to fool people into thinking that they can deliver on promises like restricted movement or migrant benefits within the EU.

I've had a good read through that policy document now and it seems perfectly reasonable to me. The only one I'm not so sure about is the smoking issue, purely because I used to work as a barman breathing in all the customers smoke. I wasn't in favour of the smoking ban, but I think it may be too far down the line now to reasonably deal with liabilities from a change which will adversely affect health. It's quite possible that with good policies like those in the document, some voters may turn to UKIP who are pro-EU but see it as the one negative in their manifesto rather than pro-EU parties like the conservative with whom they share little else.

[Zod]

Esseesse said:

Zod said:

mrpurple said:

If you haven't paid for it.....why not? Try not paying your mortgage or finance on your car and see what happens.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You work for three years for a degree, take exams and are graded on your performance.You have achieved your grade whether a fantasy UKIP government tells you it has taken away your degree or not.

TBH, if the accepted norm was to lookup a job applicants qualifications against an online database then this would probably be incentive enough to pay. If it was easy to do, looking up qualifications would probably become pretty normal.

Whilst you have a point that somebody who has done the work to gain a good degree will have that experience or knowledge regardless of whether they pay, if they don't (and most do) it will likely not look good to most employers that you're comfortable not paying for services you receive. Similar to applying for a job with a degree, and a criminal record.

Of course and I think that would be a sensible policy.

[mrpurple]

Genuine Q

Would a potential employer from Europe, make checks on qualifications gained in the UK?

[Mrr T]

turbobloke said:

Mrr T said:

Any connection between UKIP and an exit policy is................

Probably derived from either the Mansfield essay or the Bruges Group document or the North document 'Flexcit'

Not the North document which discusses at great length the problems of exiting in a realistic time frame without going via EEA or EFTA which is not UKIP policy because of the free movement of labour.

So can i confirm its now the plan of UKIP not to leave the EU since they have no plan on how to do so on a realistic time scale.

[Mrr T]

sjn2004 said:

Then Merkel makes a call and we get a trade deal otherwise the German car industry collapses. They SELL us more than we BUY from them. The cards are in our hands.

Then the major of Frankfurt calls Merkel and says we believe the UK will not ban UK cars and when the UK leaves the EU. And with out a trade treaty which includes financial services all the UK banks and financial service companies will have to create a headquarters and its likely to be in Frankfurt.

You do realise no county has a trade treaty with the EU which covers financial services.Even the US banks must have a EU headquarters in the EU to qualify for a financial passport.

[Scuffers]

Mrr T said:

Not the North document which discusses at great length the problems of exiting in a realistic time frame without going via EEA or EFTA which is not UKIP policy because of the free movement of labour.

So can i confirm its now the plan of UKIP not to leave the EU since they have no plan on how to do so on a realistic time scale.

question...

do you have to work at being a pillock or does it come naturally?

[Esseesse]

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

Mrr T said:

Any connection between UKIP and an exit policy is................

Probably derived from either the Mansfield essay or the Bruges Group document or the North document 'Flexcit'

Not the North document which discusses at great length the problems of exiting in a realistic time frame without going via EEA or EFTA which is not UKIP policy because of the free movement of labour.

So can i confirm its now the plan of UKIP not to leave the EU since they have no plan on how to do so on a realistic time scale.

Can't we just go via EEA or EFTA and break the free movement rule bit?

[TheRealFingers99]

Scuffers said:

question...

do you have to work at being a pillock or does it come naturally?

Wow! A kipper at the height of his intellectual powers!

[Jinx]

Mrr T said:

Then the major of Frankfurt calls Merkel and says we believe the UK will not ban UK cars and when the UK leaves the EU. And with out a trade treaty which includes financial services all the UK banks and financial service companies will have to create a headquarters and its likely to be in Frankfurt.

You do realise no county has a trade treaty with the EU which covers financial services.Even the US banks must have a EU headquarters in the EU to qualify for a financial passport.

So when the EU breaks under the strain of the Euro (without the UK helping finance the EU project) the financial institutions will come flooding back to the UK. Win-win.

[turbobloke]

Scuffers said:

Mrr T said:

Not the North document which discusses at great length the problems of exiting in a realistic time frame without going via EEA or EFTA which is not UKIP policy because of the free movement of labour.

So can i confirm its now the plan of UKIP not to leave the EU since they have no plan on how to do so on a realistic time scale.

question...

do you have to work at being a pillock or does it come naturally?

There are various options, but they appear to have vanished leaving only one that bashes UKIP - possibly someone is working at becoming another Tommy Cooper

The FT excluded EFTA aspects of a Brexit for some time, prompting readers to write in.