Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5
Discussion
It seems odd to me that this has been missed so far:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...
Certainly, the mantra of 'no EU membership' of some of the more moronic posters is clearly wrong. At least there is considerable uncertainty but, more likely, the argument seems to be leaning more to the YES campaign's position.
Although, I have come to regard this thread as effectively unionist propaganda, largely devoid of objective interpretation of the information, where reports that in any support independence are either ignored or dismissed in the most disingenuous of manners.
As you were...
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...
Certainly, the mantra of 'no EU membership' of some of the more moronic posters is clearly wrong. At least there is considerable uncertainty but, more likely, the argument seems to be leaning more to the YES campaign's position.
Although, I have come to regard this thread as effectively unionist propaganda, largely devoid of objective interpretation of the information, where reports that in any support independence are either ignored or dismissed in the most disingenuous of manners.
As you were...
Edited by Calvib on Sunday 20th July 15:42
Calvib said:
It seems odd to me that this has been missed so far:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...
Certainly, the mantra of 'no EU membership' of some of the more moronic posters is clearly wrong. At least there is considerable uncertainty but, more likely, the argument seems to be leaning more to the YES campaign's position.
Although, I have come to regard this thread as effectively unionist propaganda, largely devoid of objective interpretation of the information, where reports that in any support independence are either ignored or dismissed in the most disingenuous of manners.
As you were...
Hahahaha... oh you're serious? The full, factual answers backed up by trusted sources coming from the Yes camp obviously has us thrown.http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...
Certainly, the mantra of 'no EU membership' of some of the more moronic posters is clearly wrong. At least there is considerable uncertainty but, more likely, the argument seems to be leaning more to the YES campaign's position.
Although, I have come to regard this thread as effectively unionist propaganda, largely devoid of objective interpretation of the information, where reports that in any support independence are either ignored or dismissed in the most disingenuous of manners.
As you were...
Edited by Calvib on Sunday 20th July 15:42
Seriously?
So an unnamed 'Senior EU source' says it may be looked at favourably - big fecking deal.
Find one person, named, who has any power at all, stating that Scotland's accession is likely. Then it's news.
However, at the moment there are more than one, named, senior EU figures stating it's not going to happen.
Indeed, even the route Salmond and Co have been suggesting has been properly, officially, refuted. So there's not even a suggestion of a viable mechanism.
And you accuse us of 'unionist propaganda' and a lack of objectivity. I suggest you have little understanding of the meaning of either word.
So an unnamed 'Senior EU source' says it may be looked at favourably - big fecking deal.
Find one person, named, who has any power at all, stating that Scotland's accession is likely. Then it's news.
However, at the moment there are more than one, named, senior EU figures stating it's not going to happen.
Indeed, even the route Salmond and Co have been suggesting has been properly, officially, refuted. So there's not even a suggestion of a viable mechanism.
And you accuse us of 'unionist propaganda' and a lack of objectivity. I suggest you have little understanding of the meaning of either word.
Calvib said:
It seems odd to me that this has been missed so far:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...
Certainly, the mantra of 'no EU membership' of some of the more moronic posters is clearly wrong. At least there is considerable uncertainty but, more likely, the argument seems to be leaning more to the YES campaign's position.
Although, I have come to regard this thread as effectively unionist propaganda, largely devoid of objective interpretation of the information, where reports that in any support independence are either ignored or dismissed in the most disingenuous of manners.
As you were...
the only moron is youhttp://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...
Certainly, the mantra of 'no EU membership' of some of the more moronic posters is clearly wrong. At least there is considerable uncertainty but, more likely, the argument seems to be leaning more to the YES campaign's position.
Although, I have come to regard this thread as effectively unionist propaganda, largely devoid of objective interpretation of the information, where reports that in any support independence are either ignored or dismissed in the most disingenuous of manners.
As you were...
Edited by Calvib on Sunday 20th July 15:42
lets again have a look at the exact quote
Junker “would not want Scotland to be kept out”
Now seeing the SNP mantra is we will never be outside of the Eu then how can we be kept out if we never leave?
As a unionist tory traitor i have never said the Scotland would be kept out of the EU
I have said that when we leave the UK we will leave the EU and we will have to re apply
Yet again you have found some deer s
t called it reindeer st and used it to prove Einstein is wrong as santa exists therefore we can travel faster then light ergo Star wars is completely trueyour logic train is weaker then wet bog roll
Calvib said:
It seems odd to me that this has been missed so far:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...
Certainly, the mantra of 'no EU membership' of some of the more moronic posters is clearly wrong. At least there is considerable uncertainty but, more likely, the argument seems to be leaning more to the YES campaign's position.
Although, I have come to regard this thread as effectively unionist propaganda, largely devoid of objective interpretation of the information, where reports that in any support independence are either ignored or dismissed in the most disingenuous of manners.
As you were...
Well, not really. Firstly what we are talking about is something that isn't Juncker's decision, as I said before:http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...
Certainly, the mantra of 'no EU membership' of some of the more moronic posters is clearly wrong. At least there is considerable uncertainty but, more likely, the argument seems to be leaning more to the YES campaign's position.
Although, I have come to regard this thread as effectively unionist propaganda, largely devoid of objective interpretation of the information, where reports that in any support independence are either ignored or dismissed in the most disingenuous of manners.
As you were...
Edited by Calvib on Sunday 20th July 15:42
HenryJM said:
At the end of the day the decision doesn't really lie in Scotland or with Juncker, it lies with the member states.
If there is unanimous enthusiasm for iScotland to remain as a member then it will, if there isn't then it won't.
Regardless of anything else, even if the SNP were to be correct that it could be under Article 48, it would only work if a country proposed it and all supported it. For some, such as France, it may mean them holding a referendum because it relates to an admission treaty which can't be ratified by the government without a referendum. In others, such as Spain, there is a lot of opposition to it anyway. As for the UK....
But also this is:If there is unanimous enthusiasm for iScotland to remain as a member then it will, if there isn't then it won't.
Regardless of anything else, even if the SNP were to be correct that it could be under Article 48, it would only work if a country proposed it and all supported it. For some, such as France, it may mean them holding a referendum because it relates to an admission treaty which can't be ratified by the government without a referendum. In others, such as Spain, there is a lot of opposition to it anyway. As for the UK....
The Scotsman said:
However, a high-ranking EU official last night stated Junker “would not want Scotland to be kept out”. The source said: “He’d be sympathetic as someone who is from a smaller country as he’ll understand the obstacles that can be put in the way of less powerful member states.”
So it's an unnamed somebody saying what they think that someone else might think. Really, not much of a source.I'm of the view that Scotland would be recognised as an EU member state fairly quickly if independence is gained.
It's the terms of entry that would be my concern if I were Scottish as the UKs are fairly unpopular in Europe and I can see Europe trying to use terms imposed on Scotland as leverage over the rUK.
It's the terms of entry that would be my concern if I were Scottish as the UKs are fairly unpopular in Europe and I can see Europe trying to use terms imposed on Scotland as leverage over the rUK.
barryrs said:
I'm of the view that Scotland would be recognised as an EU member state fairly quickly if independence is gained.
It's the terms of entry that would be my concern if I were Scottish as the UKs are fairly unpopular in Europe and I can see Europe trying to use terms imposed on Scotland as leverage over the rUK.
I doubt it. Spain is dead against any encouragement for independence movements because of the Basque and Catalan issues and France likewise with Corsica. They'd almost certainly veto it at least in the short-term.It's the terms of entry that would be my concern if I were Scottish as the UKs are fairly unpopular in Europe and I can see Europe trying to use terms imposed on Scotland as leverage over the rUK.
What leverage? It's simple, if you're out, you're out. Good luck to you, but expect no favours and nothing you do will effect us much. Nor could any conditions applied against Scotland cause us problems.
No, the worry should be how accession would occur.
Ignoring the meaningless gumpf about gender equality and what have you, and it comes down to finances. The EU has enough fiscal drains, and is now only really looking at states which have something to offer (such as the Ukraine and it's gas/oil). Scotland doesn't have much of this, the North Sea is virtually played out, and has never produced much in worldwide terms.
No, the criteria that matter are fiscal. Scotland fails pretty much all of them, or doesn't have the starting point to be able to meet the target.
Besides, and this is the real killer - why would someone who votes for independence from the UK want to be part of Europe? Not had a decent answer to that one in the whole thread...
No, the worry should be how accession would occur.
Ignoring the meaningless gumpf about gender equality and what have you, and it comes down to finances. The EU has enough fiscal drains, and is now only really looking at states which have something to offer (such as the Ukraine and it's gas/oil). Scotland doesn't have much of this, the North Sea is virtually played out, and has never produced much in worldwide terms.
No, the criteria that matter are fiscal. Scotland fails pretty much all of them, or doesn't have the starting point to be able to meet the target.
Besides, and this is the real killer - why would someone who votes for independence from the UK want to be part of Europe? Not had a decent answer to that one in the whole thread...
rovermorris999 said:
I doubt it. Spain is dead against any encouragement for independence movements because of the Basque and Catalan issues and France likewise with Corsica. They'd almost certainly veto it at least in the short-term.
I'm not so sure.Scottish independence will be recognised by parliament and will be democratic and lawful, whereas Spain would never allow the process to happen in the first place.
Again if the terms of entry are seen as favourable by Europe and let's be honest it's clear Alex will accept almost any then I can envisage a swift entry. Although swift in the EU is a age.
As I expected!
Note that I did not say that this guaranteed Scotland's continued membership of the EU, only that it, at the very least, disputes the validity of the paradigm on here that an independent Scotland would categorically not be in the EU!
But it does seem, on the balance of the most recent evidence (albeit anecdotal), that Scotland's membership is likely to be easier that a lot would like to suggest. If you can come up with more recent information suggesting the opposite then please post it.
As you were...
The fact this article comes out after the 'Juncker says no more states' one is meaningless. It's the quality of the information that matters.
To call this evidence is ridiculous. It's not, in any way shape or form.
Should I buy you a dictionary? You do seem to have difficulty with the meaning of words...
To call this evidence is ridiculous. It's not, in any way shape or form.
Should I buy you a dictionary? You do seem to have difficulty with the meaning of words...
Oh, and there's a difference between 'Scotland will categorically not be in the EU' and 'Scotland will categorically not be in the EU for the foreseeable future'.
One states never. That's clearly a daft statement (which I've not seen anyone make). One is backed up by European Law, the public statements of named politicians with influence, and clear understanding of the entry requirements and the best case scenario of immediately post independence Scotland's economy. That's evidence. Proper stuff, not just a lot of anecdotes or opinions. Facts.
That's the issue. You, and many others including Salmond, seem to think that it would be a severe detriment for an independent Scotland to be outside the EU come day one. Yet there has been no effort at all to recognise what would need to happen for accession to occur. Instead relying on a non-accession, but a mere continuation on the coattails of rUK' membership (remember, the EU and UN would both consider the rUK to be the continuing state, and Scotland a new one).
So whilst recognising the risk, there's no mitigation being put forward. Such as 'we acknowledge that there would need to be significant changes in economic policy to meet the EU's criteria, and this will be a challenge whilst we setup a new currency, but it's worth it and we'll play the long game and do it'.
Farcical.
One states never. That's clearly a daft statement (which I've not seen anyone make). One is backed up by European Law, the public statements of named politicians with influence, and clear understanding of the entry requirements and the best case scenario of immediately post independence Scotland's economy. That's evidence. Proper stuff, not just a lot of anecdotes or opinions. Facts.
That's the issue. You, and many others including Salmond, seem to think that it would be a severe detriment for an independent Scotland to be outside the EU come day one. Yet there has been no effort at all to recognise what would need to happen for accession to occur. Instead relying on a non-accession, but a mere continuation on the coattails of rUK' membership (remember, the EU and UN would both consider the rUK to be the continuing state, and Scotland a new one).
So whilst recognising the risk, there's no mitigation being put forward. Such as 'we acknowledge that there would need to be significant changes in economic policy to meet the EU's criteria, and this will be a challenge whilst we setup a new currency, but it's worth it and we'll play the long game and do it'.
Farcical.
Calvib said:
As I expected!
Note that I did not say that this guaranteed Scotland's continued membership of the EU, only that it, at the very least, disputes the validity of the paradigm on here that an independent Scotland would categorically not be in the EU!
But it does seem, on the balance of the most recent evidence (albeit anecdotal), that Scotland's membership is likely to be easier that a lot would like to suggest. If you can come up with more recent information suggesting the opposite then please post it.
As you were...
it's not up to junker its up to the commission who in the last few months said noNote that I did not say that this guaranteed Scotland's continued membership of the EU, only that it, at the very least, disputes the validity of the paradigm on here that an independent Scotland would categorically not be in the EU!
But it does seem, on the balance of the most recent evidence (albeit anecdotal), that Scotland's membership is likely to be easier that a lot would like to suggest. If you can come up with more recent information suggesting the opposite then please post it.
As you were...
propaganda lol
If one pauses for a moment and considers the EU position logically.....
An independent Scotland would of course gain EU membership eventually. However the question is on what terms, and why the EU would grant terms that are similar to the UK's current position. It stands to reason IMHO, that the delay and terms would be specifically designed to discourage further fragmentation.
As with so much in this debate, eventually it would all be worked out, it's the negative impact and cost in the short to medium term that is deeply worrying.
An independent Scotland would of course gain EU membership eventually. However the question is on what terms, and why the EU would grant terms that are similar to the UK's current position. It stands to reason IMHO, that the delay and terms would be specifically designed to discourage further fragmentation.
As with so much in this debate, eventually it would all be worked out, it's the negative impact and cost in the short to medium term that is deeply worrying.
HenryJM said:
Gecko1978 said:
it's not up to junker its up to the commission who in the last few months said no
propaganda lol
It's not even for the commission, it's for the member states and requires unanimous agreement.propaganda lol
You have to wonder if Ukraine hadn't had all the separatist movements all these deaths would never have happened.
Ditto Republic of Ireland - which sadly for them got off the gravy train and drastically lost out from not being part of the UK. Imagine how much better off they would have been staying in the UK
Ditto Republic of Ireland - which sadly for them got off the gravy train and drastically lost out from not being part of the UK. Imagine how much better off they would have been staying in the UK
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