Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5

[toppstuff]

Neonblau said:

In any event why on earth would immigarnts chose an independent Scotland over the UK, Germany or the US if the economic argument isn't won. And then we are back to the unanswered fundamentals such as currency, EU membership, capital flight and the significant loss of UK goverment jobs and private sector employment. If the finance, shipbuilding and civil service goes the economy will shrink substantially. What are all these immigrants you've got lined up going to do?

Stop clouding the debate with reasoned, sensible questions, you Tory bully you !!

I'd love to get the answers to these things too. I really have no horse in this race - I don't think the outcome will make much of a difference to me. But the vacuous debate and frankly shocking inability of the Nats to answer these simple questions would scare the bejeezus out of me if I was living there..

[gofasterrosssco]

pcvdriver said:

Neonblau said:

Specifically which decisions do you have in mind, that can't already be made in Scotland, and what will the specific benefits be? Apart from your nuke obsession.

Specifically? Well for starters, immigration (there are other issues too, but for now let's stick with immigration). Whilst I appreciate that the sentiment from within the M25 is that "Eff Off Jonny Foreigner - we're full", as has been espoused by quite a few of the usual suspects (I won't go into naming and shaming individuals) - in other areas of the country we are not at bursting point.
In Scotland (there is the same issue, but to a slightly lesser extent South of the border) we have a population of working age that is shrinking and a population of pension age that is growing.
It has been calculated by the Institute of Economic Research that in 50 years, if nothing is done to address this problem, then we will reach critical mass where we will not be able to support our pensioners. We simply aren't having kids at the rate we used to a generation or two ago (this goes for both North and South of the border).
Therefore we need to massively encourage immigration, not restrict it, as has become various parties in Westminster's MO for some time now. Westminster and Whitehall make kneejerk reactions just because some wooly-headed numpties make the crack-pot assertions that they're all coming over here and taking our jobs.
At the current rate - we'll all be working well into our 80's by the time I retire - instead of being able to retire at 65/66 at present.

Westminster will always pander to the wishes of the needs of London first, so rational debate with Westminster as regards immigration will never happen, as Westminster will never allow us (Scotland) to make decisions regarding immigration. I'd vote for independence on an immigration ticket alone.

The nukes thing.....would be just the icing on the cake

All I really get from you're response is that you really don't like Tories n' stuff. The whole immigration thing is tenuous at best. You really think Scotland should be independant as it MAY have a less restrictive immigration policy.? And erecting another border is going to enhance immigration, to a country that may not have immediate EU membership?

Tell me specifically what policies or benefits enacted by the UK government are specifically designed to benefit London? You sound like a typical jealous leftie that trots out the usual London stuff who can't quite understand why a city like London has been sucessful, and therefore "blames the government".. Its also about the most multi-cultural place in the UK. And I'm not a particular fan of London as a destination I'd like to live / work in..

Do you actually know what you'll be voting for?

[Edinburger]

Just thinking, isn't it interesting how so many posters ask why we want independence. What's in it? Why do you want it?

And then call Scotland a socialist nirvana and England a Tory heaven. And point out other differences.

Then ask what's so different and why do we want independence.

[pcvdriver]

bodysnatcher said:

Or perhaps make Scotland a place that people do not want to or have to leave?
For most of our history there has been a net out-migration, which has more to do with Scotland than westminster
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files2/stats/high-l...

It's certainly true for my family, at one time there were as many of us in the South of England as in Scotland - which has made many of our next generation English. (or has it?)

People have always migrated from the sticks to the big city - usually because that's where the opportunities are. My father moved from a small island to Glasgow. Why - no real opportunity on a wee island for most kids - & it's still happening today. Politicians are unlikey to make any difference.

I moved South , so that now, despite maintaining a home in Scotland, I have no say in the future of what I regard as my country. (Thats both bits, N & S).

And by the way pal, you all sound like xenophobes, not racists mind, oh no, none of that in Scotland.

Xenophobes and racists don't like foreigners, let alone welcome them to come and live in the same country...... Scotland welcomes those from outwith it's borders who wish to come and live and work here. Hardly a Xenophobic or racist outlook. Of course there are both xenophobic and racist idiots here too, but we don't let them dictate what out immigration policy should be, unlike the pandering to the racist right wing extremists demands that Westminster does.

[HD Adam]

Edinburger said:

Just thinking, isn't it interesting how so many posters ask why we want independence. What's in it? Why do you want it?

And then call Scotland a socialist nirvana and England a Tory heaven. And point out other differences.

Then ask what's so different and why do we want independence.

Nobody minds you having a Socialist Nivarna. Power to the McPeople etc.

What we're asking is how you propose to pay for it all with real facts and figures based on on what we've been told so far, i.e. no currency union, taking on a proportion of the debt, subsidising your own renewable energy and all the other little pesky things and not just spouting the head in the sand quotes of King Al like "They're all bluffing"

[London424]

pcvdriver said:

barryrs said:

Why cant the Scottish Government currently make Scotland a more attractive place to immigrants now?

Er.....because under current immigration regs - most wouldn't be allowed Indefinite Leave to Remain, Scotland's hands are tied, as Westminster currently controls immigration regs, or didn't you get that bit?

You mean the current immigration policy that allows 500 million people in the EU to jump on a plane/ferry and live and work with no issues whatsoever immediately and can stay for as long as they like. Those ones?

[McWigglebum4th]

pcvdriver said:

Therefore we need to massively encourage immigration, not restrict it, as has become various parties in Westminster's MO for some time now. Westminster and Whitehall make kneejerk reactions just because some wooly-headed numpties make the crack-pot assertions that they're all coming over here and taking our jobs.
At the current rate - we'll all be working well into our 80's by the time I retire - instead of being able to retire at 65/66 at present.

Westminster will always pander to the wishes of the needs of London first, so rational debate with Westminster as regards immigration will never happen, as Westminster will never allow us (Scotland) to make decisions regarding immigration. I'd vote for independence on an immigration ticket alone.

The nukes thing.....would be just the icing on the cake

Immigration?

There are tens of thousands of people in the central belt that have never worked and never will work.

Get them to lift a finger instead of expecting poles to come over and "take our jobs" and work so the locals can sit on their arse moaning about the tory party


Anyway why immigrants come here the tory party have destroyed all scottish industry

[McWigglebum4th]

Edinburger said:

Just thinking, isn't it interesting how so many posters ask why we want independence. What's in it? Why do you want it?

And then call Scotland a socialist nirvana and England a Tory heaven. And point out other differences.

Then ask what's so different and why do we want independence.

I know why you want independence it is exactly the same reason I want independence

Just how you intend to pay for it with increased spending and decreased taxes is a fking mystery to me

[McWigglebum4th]

pcvdriver said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Scottish nationalists

Isn't surprising how many english friends they always have

Nope, not even slightly.......and your point is?


Silly me, it's your usual cheap jibe, I don't know why I didn't recognise it as such at first - maybe I thought you'd given up the childish slurs you usually come out with and had decided to advocate sensible discussion instead..... note to self "Don't automatically Wiggly's "contributions" as a vehicle for sensible debate"...

But you know they are english and it is in your mind

I work with many folk

I vaguely know where they come from but it doesn't actually register and I am totally indifferent to it

[pcvdriver]

London424 said:

You mean the current immigration policy that allows 500 million people in the EU to jump on a plane/ferry and live and work with no issues whatsoever immediately and can stay for as long as they like. Those ones?

The clue was Indefinite Leave to Remain - this does not apply to EU nationals, meaning the other 6.5 billion on the planet. I'm not for one moment suggesting that all would want to come, merely that the rules should be the same for those from the rest of the planet, as currently enjoyed by those from (EU) Europe.

[pcvdriver]

McWigglebum4th said:

But you know they are english and it is in your mind

I work with many folk

I vaguely know where they come from but it doesn't actually register and I am totally indifferent to it

So indifferent to it, that you bring it up at any given opportunity.......do give it a rest dear!!!

[McWigglebum4th]

pcvdriver said:

The clue was Indefinite Leave to Remain - this does not apply to EU nationals, meaning the other 6.5 billion on the planet. I'm not for one moment suggesting that all would want to come, merely that the rules should be the same for those from the rest of the planet, as currently enjoyed by those from (EU) Europe.

Will you be allowed to open up Scotlands borders to everyone if we are in the EU?

[McWigglebum4th]

pcvdriver said:

McWigglebum4th said:

But you know they are english and it is in your mind

I work with many folk

I vaguely know where they come from but it doesn't actually register and I am totally indifferent to it

So indifferent to it, that you bring it up at any given opportunity.......do give it a rest dear!!!

As it gets a strike every single time

And you can accuse me of not liking england if you want

You may not get the reaction you expect

[barryrs]

pcvdriver said:

The clue was Indefinite Leave to Remain - this does not apply to EU nationals, meaning the other 6.5 billion on the planet. I'm not for one moment suggesting that all would want to come, merely that the rules should be the same for those from the rest of the planet, as currently enjoyed by those from (EU) Europe.

The fact that this is the best you can come up with is both laughable and pathetic in equal measures.

Any reason why only my first paragraph was quoted?

[pcvdriver]

mpire said:

By cynically ensuring anyone in England cannot possibly have a input
in electing a government of a colour unpopular here ?

Why should England have any say in what sort of Government that we have in Scotland?

[NomduJour]

pcvdriver said:

Why should England have any say in what sort of Government that we have in Scotland?

Why should anyone in Edinburgh have any say in what sort of government they have on Fair Isle?

[confused_buyer]

pcvdriver said:

Er.....because under current immigration regs - most wouldn't be allowed Indefinite Leave to Remain, Scotland's hands are tied, as Westminster currently controls immigration regs, or didn't you get that bit?

There are 27 EU members you can encourage immigration from without tied hands. That's a lot of people to start with.

[toppstuff]

NomduJour said:

pcvdriver said:

Why should England have any say in what sort of Government that we have in Scotland?

Why should anyone in Edinburgh have any say in what sort of government they have on Fair Isle?

And in the unlikely event of a yes vote, Why should anyone in Edinburgh have any say in what sort of government they have in England? I guess the Nats will support the suggestion that Scotland is therefore excluded from the rUK general election in 2015 then, Yes?!

[Rollin]

pcvdriver said:

London424 said:

You mean the current immigration policy that allows 500 million people in the EU to jump on a plane/ferry and live and work with no issues whatsoever immediately and can stay for as long as they like. Those ones?

The clue was Indefinite Leave to Remain - this does not apply to EU nationals, meaning the other 6.5 billion on the planet. I'm not for one moment suggesting that all would want to come, merely that the rules should be the same for those from the rest of the planet, as currently enjoyed by those from (EU) Europe.

What would attract people from poorer countries to a comparatively super rich country like the future socialist republic of Scotland?
Will these immigrants be allowed out of work benefits or is the plan to let them live on the streets if they don't find work?
Will they have to have a job before getting to Scotland?
Are you going to pop them on a plane if they lose their jobs?

[confused_buyer]

pcvdriver said:

Xenophobes and racists don't like foreigners, let alone welcome them to come and live in the same country...... Scotland welcomes those from outwith it's borders who wish to come and live and work here. .

I've never noticed that Scotland embraces immigrants any better than elsewhere in the UK. Indeed, anecdotal evidence I see in Scotland suggests just the opposite. If immigration isn't an issue in Scotland I suspect it is because there isn't much - increase it and I bet it will become an issue very quickly.

Much of southern England (and elsewhere) has a great deal of recent immigration. On the whole, most people do not in fact have a big problem with it. Yes there are tensions over housing etc. but don't kid yourself that wouldn't happen in Scotland with the same sort of numbers.