Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5

Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5

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Funk

26,254 posts

208 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Calvib said:
Westmonster
Please stop this. It's puerile and - although this seems impossible - makes you sound even more stupid than you do already.

The adults are trying to explain to you a) why what you're voting for doesn't work and b) see 'a'. The Yes brainwashing has really done a number on you and Fluffnik, it's really quite fascinating.

I'm actually torn because the intelligent, logical and analytical part of me wants to explain to you why Scotland really is better off within the Union than outside of it but on the other hand, as an Englishman, I actually believe rUK would be better off without Scotland. You have an over-inflated sense of self-importance in what you actually bring to the party, not realising that the very reason you have it as good as you already do - and it IS good on the whole - is BECAUSE you are in the Union.

Without the Union, Scotland will be plunged backward by decades. You're about to ps off the cash-cow (you take more from the pot than you put in) and your biggest export market is....us....don't kid yourself about a backlash, there already is one. Investments have been put on ice, contracts aren't being awarded....it's already happening. Post-Yes it would be catastrophic as the smart people move their assets south of the border and the money exodus begins.

I'm a paradox - I want Scotland to go, but my arguments as to why you should stay mean I care more about the future of your country than you do.

Edited by Funk on Tuesday 22 July 08:02

Gaspode

4,167 posts

195 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Bacardi said:
Out of (current) principle, I wouldn't buy Scotch anymore... and haven't done for a few years... but why would you when you have such mellow wonderfulness as Labrot and Graham's Woodford Reserve Bourbon available? Same for smoked Salmon, wild Alaskan every time for me...
I have been an enthusiastic Malt drinker for many years, and given that the Scotch Whisky industry is generally on the No side I've been doing my best to support them as much as possible.

But if there's a yes vote, I shall confine myself to drinking only Malt which is produced by British companies. I have no problem with British companies having manufacturing plants in foreign countries, but I certainly wouldn't favour foreign companies over British.

McWigglebum4th

32,414 posts

203 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Calvib said:
No, we'll be in the EU, at least until the day of independence.
At last you have touched upon some truth


On independence day we become a new country outside of the UK

Which puts us outside of the EU

And we can apply to join on that day


Simple sensible and logical


NoNeed

15,137 posts

199 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Calvib said:
Westminster refusing to discuss issues.
I see the SNP asking Cameron for a debate at PMQ'S, I don't see them asking anything that could clarify their position on a currency union or energy union.

It's not Westminster refusing to discuss, it's the SNP not wanting their idiot followers to know the answers.

Silverbullet767

10,680 posts

205 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
As as Scottish person, I'm glad I have an English account for my business, if by some horror a yes vote does happen, I'll move all my personal accounts down south too. I'm in a position to move home, but I won't buy another home in Scotland until the vote is decided, it's too risky to buy a home when I don't even know what currency I'll be paying it in, or what the interest rates are likely to be. This is just me, 1 person with a small business. What are the large companies doing? The same, holding off investment until the vote. I fear for my country if the worst happens.

The big questions STILL haven't been answered.

Currency, a currency share is only guaranteed with a NO vote. There is no plan B
EU membership, provided UKIP don't win the next general election, guaranteed continued membership with a NO vote. There is no plan B.
Set-up costs, zero with a NO vote.
More powers for the Scottish government, guaranteed with a NO vote with cost shared throughout the UK.

Leaving out many other reasons (and why would you need any) you'd have to be mad to vote yes and risk your entire country on hopes and dreams. So that's why I and the majority of others are voting NO. It's financial suicide otherwise.

wolves_wanderer

12,356 posts

236 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Calvib said:
ExV8 said:
Calvib said:
I don't know what you get so het up about anyway.

We'll vote YES.

Our respective governements bill bash out a deal that works better for both countries than the current set up.

This will involve a temporary currency union.

Scottish continued use of embassies.

A shared energy grid.
M
Very easy trading conditions.

Continued use of Union Flag.

We'll get on just fine and wonder what all the fuss was about.
That would work, until rUK says denied.

Do Yes voters really think rUK will be a walkover. It won't be amicable at all.
But it will be vastly in the interest of rUK too. In the real world, decisions will not be made by toys-out-of-the-pram keyboard warriors on the basis out of spite and the ethos of 'I'm not playing with you'...
Just to take one point. We refused a currency union with the largest trade area in the world. Why would Scotland be different?

Calvib

328 posts

121 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
SBDJ said:
Calvib said:
This will involve a temporary currency union
Actually it's been stated that if by some miracle a currency union was to be offered it could only ever be offered on a long term basis. A short term currency union is simply not viable.

Thankfully it's not on the table at all.

Calvib said:
Scottish continued use of embassies
At a cost of course. Yes, I know, you think Scotland is entitled to 10% of them - but if you are going to go down that route then please remember that of course this means Scotland would only also own 10% of it's own assets. You can't have 100% of yours + 10% of the rUKs after all.

Calvib said:
No, we'll be in the EU, at least until the day of independence.
Thats an obvious statement - assuming the UK doesn't depart the EU in the interim then you would still be part of the UK and thus in the EU. That same EU who have confirmed - in writing to the Scottish government, twice - that you would be a new country applying to be in the EU. Even if your application was fast tracked it's still a long and involved process and something I don't imagine would be accomplished before independence day.
Currency union - temporary and long-term are relative terms

Embassies - this is not a '10%' issue. We are retaining the monarchy.

EU - at the very least what you say is speculation. Continuation of membership has NOT been ruled out, despite the biased rhetoric on here.

Calvib

328 posts

121 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Funk said:
Calvib said:
Westmonster
Please stop this. It's puerile and - although this seems impossible - makes you sound even more stupid than you do already.

The adults are trying to explain to you a) why what you're voting for doesn't work and b) see 'a'. The Yes brainwashing has really done a number on you and Fluffnik, it's really quite fascinating.

I'm actually torn because the intelligent, logical and analytical part of me wants to explain to you why Scotland really is better off within the Union than outside of it but on the other hand, as an Englishman, I actually believe rUK would be better off without Scotland. You have an over-inflated sense of self-importance in what you actually bring to the party, not realising that the very reason you have it as good as you already do - and it IS good on the whole - is BECAUSE you are in the Union.

Without the Union, Scotland will be plunged backward by decades. You're about to ps off the cash-cow (you take more from the pot than you put in) and your biggest export market is....us....don't kid yourself about a backlash, there already is one. Investments have been put on ice, contracts aren't being awarded....it's already happening. Post-Yes it would be catastrophic as the smart people move their assets south of the border and the money exodus begins.

I'm a paradox - I want Scotland to go, but my arguments as to why you should stay mean I care more about the future of your country than you do.

Edited by Funk on Tuesday 22 July 08:02
Sorry, Wastemonster

Calvib

328 posts

121 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
McWigglebum4th said:
Calvib said:
No, we'll be in the EU, at least until the day of independence.
At last you have touched upon some truth


On independence day we become a new country outside of the UK

Which puts us outside of the EU

And we can apply to join on that day


Simple sensible and logical
This is NOT in any way factual! Stop making stuff up please.

Please caveat at least with something like "it is in my very humble opinion"...

McWigglebum4th

32,414 posts

203 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Calvib said:
Currency union - temporary and long-term are relative terms

Embassies - this is not a '10%' issue. We are retaining the monarchy.

EU - at the very least what you say is speculation. Continuation of membership has NOT been ruled out, despite the biased rhetoric on here.
All from HERE

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybus...

Which is the committee headed by the SNP in the scottish parliament looking at the issue of if we will be out of the EU when we vote YES.

First letter to the EU. Stating that they believe we cannot be thrown out of the Eu as there is no way of removing our membership. Which is the most common argument that we will stay in the EU.

Letter here dated 10th of march http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx...

The reply is received on the 20th of march 2014 Saying that when we leave the UK then we become a new country and ergo we are no longer members of the EU as we belong to a new country which is not a member of the EU and they have been saying this since 2004 letter here http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx...

So the SNP believe that the EU doesn’t know what the EU is talking about so they ask again on the 11th of April just incase the Eu got it wrong letter here http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx...

And the Eu have replied on the 4th of June 2014 which is found here http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx... And it is a short one so i shall quote it here

"As far as EU citizenship is concerned, this is not an autonomous status but is dependent on national citizenship. In accordance with Article 20 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU), only persons holding the nationality of a Member State are EU citizens. EU citizenship is additional to and does not replace national citizenship."

 

How can you class this as biased rhetoric?



Calvib

328 posts

121 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
McWigglebum4th said:
Calvib said:
Currency union - temporary and long-term are relative terms

Embassies - this is not a '10%' issue. We are retaining the monarchy.

EU - at the very least what you say is speculation. Continuation of membership has NOT been ruled out, despite the biased rhetoric on here.
All from HERE

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybus...

Which is the committee headed by the SNP in the scottish parliament looking at the issue of if we will be out of the EU when we vote YES.

First letter to the EU. Stating that they believe we cannot be thrown out of the Eu as there is no way of removing our membership. Which is the most common argument that we will stay in the EU.

Letter here dated 10th of march http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx...

The reply is received on the 20th of march 2014 Saying that when we leave the UK then we become a new country and ergo we are no longer members of the EU as we belong to a new country which is not a member of the EU and they have been saying this since 2004 letter here http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx...

So the SNP believe that the EU doesn’t know what the EU is talking about so they ask again on the 11th of April just incase the Eu got it wrong letter here http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx...

And the Eu have replied on the 4th of June 2014 which is found here http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx... And it is a short one so i shall quote it here

"As far as EU citizenship is concerned, this is not an autonomous status but is dependent on national citizenship. In accordance with Article 20 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU), only persons holding the nationality of a Member State are EU citizens. EU citizenship is additional to and does not replace national citizenship."

 

How can you class this as biased rhetoric?
Mate, I think even you must appreciate that this is NOT the smoking gun you imply it is! Let's just see what transpires after a YES vote... smile

Did you get your dad to write that post? It seems much more eloquent than your usual ones...

tertius

6,838 posts

229 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Calvib said:
McWigglebum4th said:
Calvib said:
Currency union - temporary and long-term are relative terms

Embassies - this is not a '10%' issue. We are retaining the monarchy.

EU - at the very least what you say is speculation. Continuation of membership has NOT been ruled out, despite the biased rhetoric on here.
All from HERE

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybus...

Which is the committee headed by the SNP in the scottish parliament looking at the issue of if we will be out of the EU when we vote YES.

First letter to the EU. Stating that they believe we cannot be thrown out of the Eu as there is no way of removing our membership. Which is the most common argument that we will stay in the EU.

Letter here dated 10th of march http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx...

The reply is received on the 20th of march 2014 Saying that when we leave the UK then we become a new country and ergo we are no longer members of the EU as we belong to a new country which is not a member of the EU and they have been saying this since 2004 letter here http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx...

So the SNP believe that the EU doesn’t know what the EU is talking about so they ask again on the 11th of April just incase the Eu got it wrong letter here http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx...

And the Eu have replied on the 4th of June 2014 which is found here http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_EuropeanandEx... And it is a short one so i shall quote it here

"As far as EU citizenship is concerned, this is not an autonomous status but is dependent on national citizenship. In accordance with Article 20 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU), only persons holding the nationality of a Member State are EU citizens. EU citizenship is additional to and does not replace national citizenship."

 

How can you class this as biased rhetoric?
Mate, I think even you must appreciate that this is NOT the smoking gun you imply it is! Let's just see what transpires after a YES vote... smile

Did you get your dad to write that post? It seems much more eloquent than your usual ones...
Why don't you describe your issues with it, then? What is your analysis of that exchange between the Scottish Parliament and the European Commission?

As for "Let's just see what transpires after a YES vote... smile" that's simply puerile. Why bother to discuss anything if that is your attitude?

SBDJ

1,320 posts

203 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Calvib said:
Currency union - temporary and long-term are relative terms

Embassies - this is not a '10%' issue. We are retaining the monarchy.

EU - at the very least what you say is speculation. Continuation of membership has NOT been ruled out, despite the biased rhetoric on here.
With respect to currency union terms it would be measured in decades rather than years. Considering the pound is a mill stone around your neck you won't want to be tied down for that.

With respect to embassies - other countries retained our monarchy too, and they use their own embassies. You just expect them for sure do you?

We've produced written evidence from conversation between the EU and the Scottish government. The SG replied to that letter and the EU replied again clarifying their position. This was not a misinterpreted comment or some unnamed source - these were official letters. It is most certainly not speculatio, its this little thing called evidence.

For someone who was so critical of the no campaign for being negative you are doing a remarkable job of dodging any question and shouting speculation. I've just got scaremongering left on my nat bingo board!

McWigglebum4th

32,414 posts

203 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Calvib said:
Mate, I think even you must appreciate that this is NOT the smoking gun you imply it is! Let's just see what transpires after a YES vote... smile

Did you get your dad to write that post? It seems much more eloquent than your usual ones...
I am implying nothing

I am showing you written evidence from the EU

Your evidence that we will stay in the EU is an unnamed EU official who sayes Scotland won't be prevented from entering the EU

At no point have I ever said we will be kept out of the EU


Oh and I am not your fking mate


I think you and your ilk are fking retards

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Why isn't it?

The official response from the people that best understand the laws and treaties in place, stating an unequivocal no to continuing membership.

Do you really think that post yes there'll be 28 countries who will overturn all that just because? Even allowing for the love and goodwill Salmond claims, for quite a few of the 28 their national laws require a referendum to enable them to support the treaty change...

And this will all happen in 18 months?

Rollin

6,077 posts

244 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Calvib said:
McWigglebum4th said:
Calvib said:
No, we'll be in the EU, at least until the day of independence.
At last you have touched upon some truth


On independence day we become a new country outside of the UK

Which puts us outside of the EU

And we can apply to join on that day


Simple sensible and logical
This is NOT in any way factual! Stop making stuff up please.

Please caveat at least with something like "it is in my very humble opinion"...
Still not read the letters? Scared of doing it or don't you understand them?
rofl

Neonblau

875 posts

132 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Calvib said:
Again, resorting to insults when your position is threatened - speaks volumes.

I'm not actually sure what you're on about as there have been a lot of posts and I don't catch them all (especially on my phone).

But note that the economic argument is just of many facets to the debate - you appear to think it is the only issue.

But related to economics, I think the £10BN+ saved by getting rid of Trident's replacement, the few £BN from HS2, hundreds £Ms on London sewer upgrade, hundreds of £M on repairing Westmonster's physical infrastructure (the moral infrastructure is beyond hope) etc etc will be quite beneficial. A9 and A96 duelled, numerous new schools and hospitals etc etc could be paid for.

But then there is just the potential for societal improvement. That will be the greatest benefit (and I firmly believe that will be for rUK too).
That's no insult believe me and I'm not at all feeling threatened.

The content of your posts makes it clear you don't have even a basic understanding of how Sovereign debt works and your post above has nothing whatsoever to do with point you raised about the quality of UK v Irish debt.

You have deflected the main issues with childish "Westmonster" nonsense and minutiae about bits of infrastructure. Your posts are now just parroting the party line without providing any detail about how you think any of this will work and how it will be paid for.

I'll give you credit though you've stuck it longer than most that come on here but your entire case seems to be about "happy days and nice things".

So how about an answer on the UK v Ireland debt, the strengthening of Sterling and the UK's hugely advantageous bond yield. You must have had a case to raise the subject in the first place.

rovermorris999

5,195 posts

188 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
It's obvious the school holidays have arrived so it's a good time to ignore this topic for a month or two again.

A.J.M

7,893 posts

185 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Calvb, have you read the links taken directly from the Scottish Governments own website? Yes or no.

If you have, when what parts don't you understand? We can help explain to you, to steal a film line.. Like an 8 year old.. What it means.

If you haven't read the links, why not?


Oh, unlike many of the posters on this thread, I DO have a vote. I'll be here on the 19th for the NO vote win. biggrin

On that day, can you kindly apologise to the posters on this thread and also to all the people, countries and businesses you and your group have insulted, smeared and generally been s to.

malks222

1,851 posts

138 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
The arguement/debate is really starting to get to me. I keep seeing details, scenarios, minority issues being debated, when all I want are the answers to the basics:

- start up costs
- currency union
- EU membership
- change

sadly the Yes campaign have failed on all 3 of them in my eyes.

- start up costs: they gave a figure of circa £200mil, but then when pushed on this, couldnt admit that 'disentanglement/separation' costs would also cost £1/2bil, very close to the initial figure given by the UK governement.

- currency union: Yes have said there will be a currency union, the UK governement have categorically said no. theres been no plan B, or alternative from the yes campaign. and after reading up on lender of last resort and central banks, I can completely see why there will be no currency union.

- EU membership: its on the current scottish government website, in letters between the scottish government and the EU. that on the day of independence scotland becomes a brand new country. nothing stopping iScotland from appyling to join the EU, but it will have to do so like every other country. I also can see that scotland will not get the opt outs and rebate that the UK government were able to negotiate in the beginning.

- change: a very open, vague point. but what its means to me is- what will be different? they keep talking about a much fairer society, but what is currently stopping the current scottish governemnt doing this now? is westminster stopping the scottish government policy in welfare/healthcare/social matters? I think not. if there are changes that can be made, why are they not doing it now, what is stopping them? yes supporters keep saying they hate the waste of the uk government (HS2, trident, infrastrucure projects) but would you not rather see the scottish government use the £1-2billion pounds they would spend on setting up an iScotland, on things like schools, hospitals, care for the vulnerable?

there are loads of other questions that need answered, but for me these would be a good starting point.
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